The Beginning of Life (genesis, atheist, quote, faith)
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No he says he is looking to see if information can be formed naturally. He believes it can and that is why he is looking into it.
No, he says it is formed naturally. The molecule mixed with acid forms a template naturally, which creates the bigger molecule that then works on itself. That he had to add lemon juice is irrelevant as acids exist in nature.
Please do stop with the jibes and back to topic, ok?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
I agree. But a couple jabs back and forth is ok.
a more complex system formed a less complex system on earth.
it is not a sorta god.
I am willing to listen to any counter claim, or take the next logical step.
No, it's not OK, because it's never just a couple. It goes on and on, sometimes for pages. Let's all try to stop doing that and get on with the topic of the thread, OK?
And while we are it, let's remember that this is the Religion & Spirituality form and that the discussion should have some relevance to those subjects.
I already gave evidence of the immaterial interacting with the world and producing effects in the world.
And I showed your examples did not support your view. For example, a thought requires a brain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
But what is it you are detecting? is the law made of matter or energy? is it materialistic or naturalistic? or is it immaterial, something that is not seen but has an effect that can be observed?
Lets take the laws of physics as an example.
The laws of physics are not physical. They are not made of matter and they're not made of energy. The laws of physics do not have temperature, density, color, mass, volume, shape, a melting point, hardness, odor, length, etc. They do not possess kinetic, potential, thermal, elastic, chemical, or radiant energy. So then if the law lacks all these things what makes you believe it is materialistic and not immaterial? It seem to me that the law lacks any of the characteristic that would make it a natural or materialistic.
A law is a man made description of properties and behaviors of things that exist. Arguing what the law is made of makes no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
What the law does is describe the behavior of matter, but it would be incorrect to say the law itself was matter.
Using the law of physics again as an example.
The law of physics might describe behavior of matter at zero degrees Kelvin, but it would be incorrect to state that the law itself was cold
Now you need to show me how the laws have temperature, density, color, mass, volume, shape, a melting point, hardness, odor, length, etc. possess kinetic, potential, thermal, elastic, chemical, or radiant energy.
What flavor does the description of Mr Yap have? This is what you are asking, and it makes no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
The laws are not natural they are immaterial.
Thus if that which is immaterial can and does effect our world you cannot rule out an immaterial God doing the same.
Except the description of properties and behaviors does not effect our reality, it is the properties and behaviors themselves that do. And those properties and behaviors are of things that exist.
I don't believe you can back that statement up Harry.
I did the first time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Also Harry you never replied to the two quotes I supplied by Cronin which you believed I was taking out of context. After reading the link I supplied with the quotes do you still think that?
I'll tell you something I wish posters would stop doing: stop placing victory laurel wreaths on your own heads. You don't win a discussion just because you say you do.
My question would go back further Arach, what made the universe that made the watch?
Thus we come full circle. Science cannot prove the existence of God it can only show immaterial causes have effects that can be seen in the natural. consciousness, information, laws, these are all immaterial things that can and do effect the world around us.
All based on things that exist. In order, brains; you still need to tell us which valid definition of information you are using, but I gave one example, the sun; and people describing how existing things with properties behave.
However, again. The topic is 'the beginning of Life', not a cosmic intelligence.
'The beginning of life' in a religious forum must include the possibility of a cosmic intelligence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
And while we are it, let's remember that this is the Religion & Spirituality form and that the discussion should have some relevance to those subjects.
a more complex system formed a less complex system on earth.
it is not a sorta god.
I am willing to listen to any counter claim, or take the next logical step.
The 'complexity' is a non issue. Is the geological water -table more or less complex than a river system? Pointless question.
Is it all part of the earth -system. Yes, true but unhelpful (*as regards making a case for anything that can Honestly be named 'God'...as MQ says, the forum is R/S..that means theism, not science in a dog -collar.)
Do we know how it happens?Yes. Is there an intelligence involved? Not that anyone can persuasively show (as you say - any 'counter -claim'). And if the 'Creation -science' bods can't do it, I don't know who can.
This is simple and life the universe and everything is the same for all that anyone has been able to prove.
The 'complexity' is a non issue. Is the geological water -table more or less complex than a river system? Pointless question.
Is it all part of the earth -system. Yes, true but unhelpful (*as regards making a case for anything that can Honestly be named 'God'...as MQ says, the forum is R/S..that means theism, not science in a dog -collar.)
Do we know how it happens?Yes. Is there an intelligence involved? Not that anyone can persuasively show (as you say - any 'counter -claim'). And if the 'Creation -science' bods can't do it, I don't know who can.
This is simple and life the universe and everything is the same for all that anyone has been able to prove.
un helpful to what? I am only here to talk about how the universe works in relation to religion and spirituality. So it most certainty is helpful.
let me point out how ...
I say ...we have a more complex system that formed a less complex system. You clearly see that. I am aware and I am far less complex than just the immediate system.
or
you: That is un helpful and only "intellect is involved". I would like to add in what I read "... dog collar's science ..." MQ is more that welcome to clarify the that one.
so lets apply the scientific method and faith to evaluate the claims. what claim fits what we see, offers a mechanism, and makes repeatable predictions?
I see absolutely no reason that "intelligence" is a requirement for discussing the possibilities that lead to life.
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