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Old 09-23-2020, 09:04 AM
 
18,880 posts, read 6,891,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
the black hole is as natural as your god.
How does a black hole exist without a universe? And as an inanimate object, how does it exist, period?
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Old 09-23-2020, 02:05 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,540,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
How does a black hole exist without a universe? And as an inanimate object, how does it exist, period?
I'm sure that Arach can answer for himself but, as I understand it, you are playing the 'who created everything, then?' card. That is an unknown but using it to prove a god doesn't work so well these days, and you still have to show which particular god this was. The real argument is Bible (in fact Gospel) reliability, and always was.

That said, I recall seeing a talk suggesting that the matter of the BB event produced the black holes and the thinking seems to be that they were instrumental in producing the form of the universe as it is.

Discussion of that is really a matter for the Science forum, rather than the Religion (and atheism) forum, and would not help you make a case for God or or any particular religion even if it was topical for R/S.

(Yes I know. The OP rather started the argument).

However, this little vid might explain some of the hypotheticals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scOXb1RewcA

Further, this popped up which goes deeper into Quasars (1) (billions of light years away and thus billions of years ancient) and how they relate to mega -black holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BPnLG9MD5Q

As always, apologies for any adverts that pop up.
Being fascinated by astronomy in the 50's, this was all very new and puzzling. It has been an excellent adventure in following how the explanation have been appearing and then confirmed by evidnce, a process which is still going on.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-23-2020 at 02:32 PM..
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Old 09-23-2020, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
10,912 posts, read 5,889,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
and what caused those "mega massive black holes"?
That is a very good question. You also ask how a black hole can exist without a universe.

The second question is not a mystery. Actually, in this scenario the universe exists inside the black hole. Or the energy of the universe does anyway.

This is all speculation on my part. Just an idea I came up with. It turns out that I was not the first to speculate on it. I do have an idea of how things came about in the first place but it's getting way out of R&S territory. Quantum fluctuations and lots of time - and an eternity is a lot of time.

My claim is that if a creator being can exist prior to and outside of the universe then so can a primordial pre-universe. Which is more likely? By bet is on quantum fluctuations.
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Old 09-23-2020, 02:24 PM
 
18,880 posts, read 6,891,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I'm sure that Arach can answer for himself but, as I understand it, you are playing the 'who created everything, then?' card. That is an unknown but using it to prove a god doesn't work so well these days, and you still have to show which particular god this was. The real argument is Bible (in fact Gospel) reliability, and always was.
Yes. I'm playing that "card". It's a relevant question. And rather than make me watch some long video to do your work for you, why don't you just explain it in your own words? Can you?
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Old 09-23-2020, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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On the question of which god, it would have to be THE creator god. So that part is a given. The real question is whether or not we can identify this creator god among the plethora of past and present day gods. And why would there be so many gods about if there was only one creator god?

Perhaps we should be looking at the origins of gods? That would be a thread topic on its own.
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Old 09-23-2020, 02:30 PM
 
13,011 posts, read 12,982,956 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Yes. I'm playing that "card". It's a relevant question. And rather than make me watch some long video to do your work for you, why don't you just explain it in your own words? Can you?
It is a relevant question. But the only honest answer is that we do not know if the universe was created, just came to be, or has always existed in some fashion.

Using that unknown to assert the existence of a generic god fails, and certainly you cannot get to a Christian god from that unknown.
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Old 09-23-2020, 02:43 PM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,058,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
And then put some 10 kilometer wide rocks in orbit near the earth, just for a joke. Oh, you should have seen those BIG brontosaurs flying through the air 65 million years ago. They never expected THAT.
Is that your attempt to move something an orbit without using any intelligence? Quite Lame, I would say.
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Old 09-23-2020, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Is that your attempt to move something an orbit without using any intelligence? Quite Lame, I would say.
But why do you say it requires intelligence to put something into orbit? All orbit requires is one body to have sufficient angular velocity relative to another body. To put an artificial satellite into orbit requires intelligence yes but orbits occur naturally. And by accident too.

What intelligence was required to put the moon in orbit? Solar planetary systems were forming in the early solar system and it was a very chaotic and violent place. A small planet and earth intercepted each other, splashing out a huge amount of debris, some of which went into earth orbit which then coalesced into the moon. The moon then slowly drifted further out due to tidal drag. To give some idea just how accidental this event was, only one such moon is known to have formed in this way. Well, it's pretty likely that Venus and Mercury had moons too but as those moons orbits drifted out, such moons would have moved into the Lagrange points and drifted of to crash into the sun. No intelligence required whatsoever. What does take intelligence though, is figuring out how all this plays out.

But on the rarity thing, it only happened to the earth once in 4.5 billion years! There were other collisions but none of those formed a moon.

Last edited by 303Guy; 09-23-2020 at 03:22 PM..
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Old 09-23-2020, 03:29 PM
 
18,875 posts, read 27,319,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
That is a very good question. You also ask how a black hole can exist without a universe.

The second question is not a mystery. Actually, in this scenario the universe exists inside the black hole. Or the energy of the universe does anyway.

This is all speculation on my part. Just an idea I came up with. It turns out that I was not the first to speculate on it. I do have an idea of how things came about in the first place but it's getting way out of R&S territory. Quantum fluctuations and lots of time - and an eternity is a lot of time.

My claim is that if a creator being can exist prior to and outside of the universe then so can a primordial pre-universe. Which is more likely? By bet is on quantum fluctuations.



Both of highlighted then are to be IN something. I am not questioning possibility of a universe being inside of BH.I am asking - what, then, are BH and quantum fluctuations IN? And, exactly wehere did BJ and quantum fluctuations come from? And so on... as, if they came from somewhere, where THAT came from?
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Old 09-23-2020, 03:34 PM
 
18,875 posts, read 27,319,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
But why do you say it requires intelligence to put something into orbit? All orbit requires is one body to have sufficient angular velocity relative to another body. To put an artificial satellite into orbit requires intelligence yes but orbits occur naturally. And by accident too.

What intelligence was required to put the moon in orbit? Solar planetary systems were forming in the early solar system and it was a very chaotic and violent place. A small planet and earth intercepted each other, splashing out a huge amount of debris, some of which went into earth orbit which then coalesced into the moon. The moon then slowly drifted further out due to tidal drag. To give some idea just how accidental this event was, only one such moon is known to have formed in this way. Well, it's pretty likely that Venus and Mercury had moons too but as those moons orbits drifted out, such moons would have moved into the Lagrange points and drifted of to crash into the sun. No intelligence required whatsoever. What does take intelligence though, is figuring out how all this plays out.

But on the rarity thing, it only happened to the earth once in 4.5 billion years! There were other collisions but none of those formed a moon.



Well, you may to ponder then, what proverbial miracle keeps moon in its orbit and exactly as it is. As, it is against any logic and common sense.
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