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Y. They could not comprehend how apparently ‘civilised’ and often highly educated people: engineers, doctors and trained nurses worked willingly in the operation of concentration camps.
easy.
It's called Milgram experiment. Shows how just exactly nice people, you describe, will torture others, per order of authority.
easy. It's called Milgram experiment. Shows how just exactly nice people, you describe, will torture others, per order of authority.
if you are saying that is the "reason" then that is also a problem with so called "educated intellectuals." If they will do whatever they are told, without integrity and without being humane, that is exactly what the school principal quote / letter / plea to the teachers was addressing and highlighting and saying needed to be kept front and center for educators.
intellectual pursuits and education and technology and medicine are pointless and meaningless and even used to do harm, when there is an absence of humane principles, recognition, and application.
You may want to give credit to quotes when you use them. Attribution is important.
In this case, the above quote is from Haim Ginott, a Jewish child psychologist, and also a Holocaust survivor. He was struck by something common to many of the stories told by holocaust survivors. They could not comprehend how apparently ‘civilised’ and often highly educated people: engineers, doctors and trained nurses worked willingly in the operation of concentration camps. From one of these survivors Haim Ginott addressed this heartfelt plea to schools. This message was sent by a school principal to teachers:
“Dear Teacher,
"I am a survivor of a concentration camp.My eyes saw what no man should witness. Gas chambers built by learned engineers, children poisoned by educated physicians; infants killed by trained nurses, women and babies shot and burned by High School and college graduates. So, I am suspicious of education.
"My request is: help your students become human. Your efforts must never produce monsters, skilled psychopaths, educated Eichmann’s. Reading, writing and arithmetic are important only if they serve to make our children more humane.”
LM, you consider yourself an educated intellectual. However in your posts, including this thread, an ongoing theme is your negative views of Judaism and of Jewish people. I am simply pointing that out. You have also shared in posts that one of your adult children recently married a Jew. Does that bother you, given your antipathy towards Jews and Judaism? Do you discuss your supposed "curiosity" about Judaism with your new family member, for instance discussing with them they types of things you have brought up in this thread? Curious.
True, and I used to attribute this quote to Goethe until someone pointed out he may not deserve the credit. As I dug into who deserves the credit, I found the effort a bit problematical, because the quote commonly though mistakenly attributed to Goethe is not exactly like the quote attributed to Ginott. In fact quite a bit different, so I've simply continued sharing the quote without attributing it to anyone. Perhaps "unknown" would be better, but no one seems to know who came up with the exact quote I like to pass along...
Tzap, you have offered your opinion about what I consider myself to be (your words not mine), and you have pretty much always tried to describe my comments in a negative light. I suspect because what criticism(s) I may have about Judaism rub you the wrong way. No different than a Mormon might be rubbed the wrong way if I comment about Mormonism in other than a positive way. I can understand the heartburn, perhaps, but I try to express opinion as openly and honestly as I can, and I do the best to justify why I am either favorable or unfavorable about whatever the topic may be...
To be fair, honest and civil, I have much resisted any comments about the person my daughter ALMOST married. He was Jewish by birth, but not one who practices Judaism. Turns out he is a big loser and the source of one of my greatest life disappointments, to say nothing of the pain he brought upon my daughter. That's about all I want to comment about that, but you asked, and I don't blame him or any of that on Judaism, because again I always try to be fair, honest and objective about such things. His Jewish father, however, another matter.
Otherwise, I have had many a chance to discuss many aspects of Judaism with Jewish people over many years. We have some very dear friends who are Jewish, both from my mother and father's circle and my own. My "curiosity" here is to better learn the 613 commandments, and to the extent anyone care to discuss them with me, I invite that discussion too.
"Different strokes for different folks," and of course nothing is perfect, but just FYI...
I used to pass this quote along to my clients when I worked for them as their Executive Coach. Also friends and family. The overwhelming response has always been very positive and thankful. Many of my clients told me they printed the quote and hung it on their office wall. A good friend of mine who counsels alcoholics told me that after I passed those words to him, he has been passing the quote along to those working toward recovery in his sessions. Often very much appreciated as well.
Overall I think the words are worthy of consideration and what I remind myself to strive toward when sometimes I can do better. Often I can do better and the reminder helps along those lines. Who actually wrote these words verbatim would be nice to know, but hardly as important as the message far as I'm concerned.
I spent most of my life without money and then, rather late in life, I got some.
What pleased me most about having more than I needed was being able to give money to those of my friends, relatives, and acquaintances who could use some.
But I don't believe in loaning money. It's a quick way to turn a friendly relationship into a business one and suddenly the feelings are all different and if payback isn't on time - or ever - the relationship has been altered, mostly likely forever.
And not in a good way.
So, if I can't afford to give it, I don't.
If the cause is worthy, and I can afford to give, I do.
It's good to not have to think about being paid back.
No. It was banned and chocked by official science, as cruel etc.
It was too good to be generally accepted.
It was smack into people faces. Showing their true nature of obedience.
As Wei Wu Wei said;
In order to take effect
The Truth
Has to penetrate
Like a sharp arrow
And that
Is likely to hurt.
Who wants that type of pain?
Also, there is another caveat to it.
Here's a fine point. Those were not Germans, right? Just regular Joes from a country. Now, forget you not, how much literature was published around German atrocities and them being inhumane, etc.
What does Milgram experiment tell you? That, basically, ANY democratic and non fascist population WILL behave exactly, as Germans did, aye?
And THAT is blasphemy and sacrilege, as this is not possible to happen in true democratic countries, aye?
There's layers and layers in what Milgram touched. Surely, "he went down fast". Too true to keep on going.
if you are saying that is the "reason" then that is also a problem with so called "educated intellectuals." If they will do whatever they are told, without integrity and without being humane, that is exactly what the school principal quote / letter / plea to the teachers was addressing and highlighting and saying needed to be kept front and center for educators.
intellectual pursuits and education and technology and medicine are pointless and meaningless and even used to do harm, when there is an absence of humane principles, recognition, and application.
Actually, I am saying nothing. I am not that smart. I simply pointed at a research, done by trained professionals, clearly showing how, under not even major authority pressure, a human will commit pretty much any crime.
That is all to it. No need to mix into this any educated intellectuals or else.
Also, here's a cherry on top of matza for you.
Every time you step out and put mask on your face, you are subject in world wide Milgram experiment. You simply show your obedience. That simple. No matter, how much lullaby was sung into people's ears, to make them believe, that they do all this at their own free will and for the benefit of others.
It's obedience training and, looks like US did real well.
Actually, I am saying nothing. I am not that smart. I simply pointed at a research, done by trained professionals, clearly showing how, under not even major authority pressure, a human will commit pretty much any crime.
That is all to it. No need to mix into this any educated intellectuals or else.
Also, here's a cherry on top of matza for you.
Every time you step out and put mask on your face, you are subject in world wide Milgram experiment. You simply show your obedience. That simple. No matter, how much lullaby was sung into people's ears, to make them believe, that they do all this at their own free will and for the benefit of others.
It's obedience training and, looks like US did real well.
it is too simplistic to say "people will commit any crime."
that is superficial and simplistic and dangerous.
to say that is just how people are is dangerous and inaccurate, because at some level it justifies and excuses the behavior. it is a variation of saying "everyone does it" or "everyone is like that" rather than identifying what is wrong with the behavior, what creates it, what incites it, what propagates it.
and most important of all. how to NOT go there.
which people CAN do. which people DO and entirely capable of. they CAN and they DO choose NOT to behave that way. people DO stand up to that. people DO have integrity and choose instead to act in humane ways.
i find it inaccurate and insidious to hear on these boards the things that are being said. there is darkness, a cynicism, a bitterness, a harshness in the view. it sees the worst and believes the worst in people. it is like saying light does not exist so don't even bother trying to be any different because "a human will commit pretty much any crime."
NO. that is NOT the case. that may be your dark skewed tainted view. but it is NOT the case. and the letter from the principal (in post #109) was expressing just that. it was a plea to the teachers and educators the importance and necessity of instilling and nurturing and nourishing the humane in their profession, in their work with the children.
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