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Misrepresentation is not irony, and chiming in about the same nonsense is beneath you. Should be anyway.
I'm glad to engage in intelligent adult discussion about any or all of these 613 commandments. Forgive me if I'll not waste too much of my time addressing these kinds of comments that are nothing of the sort.
My comment on irony was directed toward Mystic's statement about Arach's repeating the same sort of mantra, since this is exactly what Mystic does himself. It had nothing to do with misrepresentation at all. And there is absolutely no point in discussing the 613 commandments with someone/anyone to whom they do not apply anyway. Why would there be, when they have no "stake in the game", so to speak? That is my opinion only, btw, and others obviously may wish to discuss them. I wish them luck.
And there is absolutely no point in discussing the 613 commandments with someone/anyone to whom they do not apply anyway. Why would there be, when they have no "stake in the game", so to speak? That is my opinion only, btw, and others obviously may wish to discuss them. I wish them luck.
As long as the discussion is respectful and thoughtful, why shouldn’t people “with no stake in the game” be allowed to participate? Should we not learn about and try to understand traditions and cultures beyond our own?
And who all has stake in the game? Are you talking only about Jews? Do you extend the honor to practitioners of any Abrahamic religion? Or is it sufficient to believe in some form of higher power (regardless of the higher power in question)? By the same token, are people who don’t believe in any higher power automatically excluded from consideration?
As long as the discussion is respectful and thoughtful, why shouldn’t people “with no stake in the game” be allowed to participate? Should we not learn about and try to understand traditions and cultures beyond our own?
And who all has stake in the game? Are you talking only about Jews? Do you extend the honor to practitioners of any Abrahamic religion? Or is it sufficient to believe in some form of higher power (regardless of the higher power in question)? By the same token, are people who don’t believe in any higher power automatically excluded from consideration?
according to the opening post, this thread "primarily focuses on the presumed relevance or irrelevance of the 613 in terms of secular, modern-day thought" and is put forth by an atheist with a posting history of expressing views that often express disdain for religion in general and Judaism in particular. And yes discussion that is thoughtful and respectful is appreciated by everyone. But no i don't find that this thread is driven by a desire to "learn about and try to understand traditions and cultures beyond our own." That is my observation and opinion based on posts and online interactions.
according to the opening post, this thread "primarily focuses on the presumed relevance or irrelevance of the 613 in terms of secular, modern-day thought" and is put forth by an atheist with a posting history of expressing views that often express disdain for religion in general and Judaism in particular. And yes discussion that is thoughtful and respectful is appreciated by everyone. But no i don't find that this thread is driven by a desire to "learn about and try to understand traditions and cultures beyond our own." That is my observation and opinion based on posts and online interactions.
That would be my observation and opinion as well. Perhaps he will disabuse us of these opinions by summarizing what he has accomplished through this exercise and scrutiny of the 613.
Yes, it would be nice to engage in intelligent adult discussion about the 613 in this thread. That is a fine goal to have and an excellent bar to set. I am in favor of that and support it 100%. But then the very next post right after, well the comment below is not that. Disparaging individuals who post, discouraging those who have different views from posting, well, that is not conducive to the just named request for desired "intelligent adult discussion."
What are your thoughts on the culmination of the 613? We do look forward to intelligent adult discussion on that. Now that all the 613 have been listed.
I was not the one who brought in the comments about AA, but I'm not one to shy from addressing those sorts of comments too. As straight-forwardly and honest as I can be. Sometimes that includes a real emphasis with regard to pointing out the sorts of comments I appreciate and those I don't, and why.
I've been thinking about what sort of thoughts I might share "on the culmination of the 613." There are more than just a few, so I might take some time to think about which thoughts to share here and in what manner to do so. I appreciate the interest and patience in the meantime.
My comment on irony was directed toward Mystic's statement about Arach's repeating the same sort of mantra, since this is exactly what Mystic does himself. It had nothing to do with misrepresentation at all. And there is absolutely no point in discussing the 613 commandments with someone/anyone to whom they do not apply anyway. Why would there be, when they have no "stake in the game", so to speak? That is my opinion only, btw, and others obviously may wish to discuss them. I wish them luck.
Ah! Thanks for explaining. Boy did I miss what you were getting at with your "oh the irony" remark...
I've addressed the different reasons one may or may not be interested in discussing these commandments with someone/anyone who may or may not feel they apply to them directly, and I'm really tired of explaining any of that anymore.
I'm of the opinion there is interest and importance whether they relate directly to me or not. Whether I and/or others believe in Judaism or not. I believe they relate to all of us or perhaps affect all of us one way or another. Either directly or indirectly.
My interest has been to better know what they were for reasons all my own perhaps, but I've been interested regardless the interest or perspective of others, as evidenced by my want to go through each one on a daily basis since I started.
Either way and needless to say, if interested, great. Be a part. If not, that's fine too, and if not, why be here? There is absolutely no point in being a part of something that is of no interest to you.
Thanks for your input in any case. I've always welcomed any and all input while at the same time making clear, I won't always necessarily agree or take kindly to any and all input. I've always tried to make myself clear about this in any case, for better or worse as anyone is always free to judge as they will.
As long as the discussion is respectful and thoughtful, why shouldn’t people “with no stake in the game” be allowed to participate? Should we not learn about and try to understand traditions and cultures beyond our own?
And who all has stake in the game? Are you talking only about Jews? Do you extend the honor to practitioners of any Abrahamic religion? Or is it sufficient to believe in some form of higher power (regardless of the higher power in question)? By the same token, are people who don’t believe in any higher power automatically excluded from consideration?
Nice to have someone else do some explaining and/or questioning here for a change. At least in part as some of the discussion I find interesting and more like the mature, civil and intelligent discussion most of us seem wanting to promote. Thanks again.
according to the opening post, this thread "primarily focuses on the presumed relevance or irrelevance of the 613 in terms of secular, modern-day thought" and is put forth by an atheist with a posting history of expressing views that often express disdain for religion in general and Judaism in particular. And yes discussion that is thoughtful and respectful is appreciated by everyone. But no i don't find that this thread is driven by a desire to "learn about and try to understand traditions and cultures beyond our own." That is my observation and opinion based on posts and online interactions.
All mostly true regarding my OP that I wrote as best I could at the time, but I never considered my first post here to be the defining dictate as to how this thread might go...
I would not say I have a "disdain" for religion, unless not sharing the same belief in other religions is "disdain." I've mostly expressed my thoughts about some "ways of thinking" or beliefs I find short of worthiness, and I do my best to explain why I think what I do. I suppose that might be called "disdain," and if that's the choice of word you or anyone else insists on using, then so be it for you I suppose.
I'm not sure where this about "Judaism in particular" comes from, because if I have "disdain" for any religion, that disdain is quite equal across the board as far as I'm concerned, but again rather than disdain I'd say I simply don't share the reason or rationale that others do about their religion, regardless the religion.
In fact, this is part of what I've been thinking to include as part of my conclusion now that I'm done considering all 613 commandments. I find myself feeling the same way I do about them as I do about the Bible more generally speaking, and the Book of Mormon, and the Koran, etc.
This too begs for further discussion, but I don't know how to avoid the inevitable "my religion is the right one" sort of debate that is truly pointless. I have another thought or two I'd like to share that might better explain or justify my perspective that I'm still wanting to think about some more.
This is part of why Jesus had to come and replace all the nonsense and laws / legalism before. He only had a handful of commandments, such as love God and your neighbor as yourself. The runaway train of the exclusive covenant with the Jews ran it's mad course, and a powerful reset was needed. The simplicity of spirituality will always outdo the 'kitchen sink' approach of religion.
according to the opening post, this thread "primarily focuses on the presumed relevance or irrelevance of the 613 in terms of secular, modern-day thought" and is put forth by an atheist with a posting history of expressing views that often express disdain for religion in general and Judaism in particular. And yes discussion that is thoughtful and respectful is appreciated by everyone. But no i don't find that this thread is driven by a desire to "learn about and try to understand traditions and cultures beyond our own." That is my observation and opinion based on posts and online interactions.
I don’t always agree with LearnMe, and I will call him to task when my disagreement goes beyond mere difference of opinion (just as I do with anyone else, and just as anyone else can and should do with me). But he does put time and thought into his posts, and he is also willing to admit when he is wrong (the same which can’t be said for many posters here, regardless of their “side”). But you must be at least a little bit curious since you’re choosing to post here. Maybe it’s the equivalent of online rubbernecking (which I’m not criticizing and sometimes enjoy myself ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
This is part of why Jesus had to come and replace all the nonsense and laws / legalism before. He only had a handful of commandments, such as love God and your neighbor as yourself. The runaway train of the exclusive covenant with the Jews ran it's mad course, and a powerful reset was needed. The simplicity of spirituality will always outdo the 'kitchen sink' approach of religion.
Ahhhh, good old Christian superiority, albeit in anti-intellectual form. I would say those simplifications (among others) were motivated by the desire to make Christianity a more appealing package deal for potential converts, which Christianity craves. That may make Christianity seem “smarter” if we accept the premise that other religions focus on strength in numbers first and foremost (which is certainly an understandable strategy for gaining power and influence). But Judaism (among other religions) does not operate from that standpoint, and there are much higher barriers to entry.
It’s also the reason why although there are plenty of Christian scholars and even scholarly-focused movements (like the Jesuits), Christianity, as an overall religion, is not scholarly in nature. I say that objectively and without any value judgments whatsoever.
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That would be my observation and opinion as well. Perhaps he will disabuse us of these opinions by summarizing what he has accomplished through this exercise and scrutiny of the 613.
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