Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I didn't see anyone in this thread saying that it's wrong to teach moral principles.
What's mostly being said is that parents should give students a broad perspective on religious beliefs.
Although I agree with you that this is a good idea, no one else gets to say what parents "should" do when it comes to religious beliefs. People whose religious beliefs are inseparable from their identity often believe that separation from the "Others" is an important part of that religious identity. Just because we can't relate to that way of thinking doesn't mean we get to decide that parents should do otherwise.
Although I agree with you that this is a good idea, no one else gets to say what parents "should" do when it comes to religious beliefs. People whose religious beliefs are inseparable from their identity often believe that separation from the "Others" is an important part of that religious identity. Just because we can't relate to that way of thinking doesn't mean we get to decide that parents should do otherwise.
Actually we do get to say what they 'should' do. We don't get to say what they 'have' to do.
Faith and rationalism are not opposite ends of a spectrum.
I respectfully do not see it quite that way. Faith appears to be another word for trust or belief. You can believe or trust something based on rational thinking or you can also do the same thing based on irrational thinking. Let's take the word rationalism. Would that not be another way of saying that something is reasonable, like let's look at this situation based on the facts that we can see here; or let's reason this out together, let's discuss it.
So I don't see it quite on a spectrum but as faith, that is a belief that can be either rational or irrational; and rationalism as in someone's reasoning about something based on factual information.
Faith is often used in conjunction with someone's religious beliefs. Faith, however is directly opposite to that of definite knowledge. So I find that the spectrum that faith is on is the spectrum of faith and facts. For example, say a child is waiting after school for his father to pick him up. He says I have faith that my father will pick me up today from school. Now, if his father comes and picks him up, it would be quite irrational (there's where the rationalism comes in) for him to say I have faith that my father picked me up from school. Well, I hope he does; unless he thinks he is in some kind of alternate reality or hallucinating and he actually is not being picked up from school and is still waiting there on the sidewalk.
Now let's look at his faith from a different perspective as to why he has faith that his father will pick him up. If someone should ask him this and he says Well, I have been going to this same school for 4 years now and every single day at this time my father always has come to pick me up; he gets off work at 2:30pm (it's 3pm now) and it's on his way home from work. Okay, that sounds like a good reason then for him to believe that his father will be there that day too. That would be an example of rational faith. If someone should ask him this and he says Well, for 4 years its usually been my mom that picks me up; my father gets off work at 5pm (it's 3pm now) but for some reason I just really think it's going to be him today. He or my mom didn't tell me anything like he's getting off work early today, but I don't know I just have this feeling. That doesn't appear to be sound reasoning on the child's part. That would be an example of irrational faith.
So let's look at this in a religious context. Here's the basic facts that we do have: we all die and we do not know what happens after that, if anything. I have not done any extensive study but it appears to me that basically religion offers an answer as to what happens after we die (that answer may be nothing; it also would appear they give answers to other things such as the beginning of life, what should be one's moral conduct and how to reach the desired end such as heaven, nirvana etc. or if there's nothing then you don't have to do anything). Since we do not have any facts about what happens after death followers of a religion have to have faith in that religion.
For example then you have someone who has faith in Christianity as it is given in the Bible. For why they have faith they explain, I find the Bible's description of humanity to be a depiction of what I have experienced in my life; the promises of God to be fulfilled in many cases; I don't find any irreconcilable contradictions in it, rather the entirety of it written over the course of thousands of years depicts a clear and unified narrative as though it were written or edited since the style of writing varies by a single author; archaeological evidence supports many of the narratives in the Bible; there is historical evidence of this Jesus who claimed to be a Messiah and the growth of the early church based on his teachings; the exponential growth of the church and fulfillment of the promises of the peace and unity (though not without imperfection) adhering to the teachings of Jesus brings; the main reason however is the change it brought about to my own life--I went from a self-centered, hateful person to one who is much less selfish and who has genuine love for my neighbors both enemies and friends. When affliction met me in the unexpected death of my husband, Jesus' teachings proved to be true in my life as they upheld me through the flood of sorrow and lifted me from despair (so this is obviously my own answer). Not entirely objective facts, much of it subjective but you can see there is reasoning going on there. Not as clear as in the pick up after school scenario, but there's something beyond just a feeling.
I was going to give the other example, but I don't think that's necessary. Maybe someone does have faith in Christianity just based on a feeling. I don't think that doesn't mean he isn't a Christian. I really don't like being judgmental and I shy away from it at all costs but I have to say in the humblest way that I don't think its a very good reason in that, I think its going to be pretty easy to drop that faith once it doesn't seem like a good feeling anymore. But I would encourage all Christians to read their Bible, ask questions and find out why they have faith in what they believe.
I understand there are some who do not believe Christianity is based on the Bible and I respectfully and humbly disagree with that. I suppose it could be, yet that is another reason then for why there should be a different name associated for those who believe in Bible-based Christianity and those who don't. Maybe that can be the name. So what I referred to above then is the Bible-based Christianity. The non-Bible based, I respect your view though I disagree with it; though as I stated in other posts I do not believe that that person who follows Jesus and just doesn't read their Bible is automatically disqualified from being saved by Jesus. That is in God's hands and Jesus said he will in no way turn away anyone who calls on him genuinely.
And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, Speak to us of Children.
And he said:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows
may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.
Thanks M.Q.! That isn't the exact post but it seems to sum up his sentiments quite nicely.
What he said was stark but overall it aids appreciating the time we invest in our youth.
For some reason this has sent me down memory lane. Nozz is certainly wealth of knowledge but I've never seen anything like the likes of Axis-Mundi!...absolute with no chaser. In one of his last post, if not the last post, he stated he could move on because Nozz was here.
Thank you, Basiliximab, for your very thoughtful post. When I wrote that post, my approach was to not argue whether something should be taught or not, but rather accept that it is there and to have a discussion about it. If something is right or wrong, then there doesn't need to be a discussion about it. But if we want somebody to move from being irrational to rational, then I think a discussion is in order because saying "you're wrong" is not enough. If the intent is to get the other person to shut up, well then, that is another topic.
My use of a spectrum to define things is more for conversational purposes because creating one and placing things in it is a mental activity. You mentioned a spectrum of "faith and facts" which I certainly can envision and can see its usefulness in helping define faith by telling us what it is not.
You touched upon religious faith which I failed to do. I didn't know where it belonged between the 3 different kinds of faiths I described. The first being what you call rational faith, which you described quite well. I called it evidence-based predicting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab
Now let's look at his faith from a different perspective as to why he has faith that his father will pick him up. If someone should ask him this and he says Well, I have been going to this same school for 4 years now and every single day at this time my father always has come to pick me up; he gets off work at 2:30pm (it's 3pm now) and it's on his way home from work. Okay, that sounds like a good reason then for him to believe that his father will be there that day too. That would be an example of rational faith.
You described irrational faith better than I did. I kept it at people making their problems worse or continuing a problem but I did not consider a mental illness like a hallucination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab
Now, if his father comes and picks him up, it would be quite irrational (there's where the rationalism comes in) for him to say I have faith that my father picked me up from school. Well, I hope he does; unless he thinks he is in some kind of alternate reality or hallucinating and he actually is not being picked up from school and is still waiting there on the sidewalk.
Here is another good example of irrational faith. This was more in line with what I was referring to when I say people make their problems worse. Your description is much more innocent than mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab
If someone should ask him this and he says Well, for 4 years its usually been my mom that picks me up; my father gets off work at 5pm (it's 3pm now) but for some reason I just really think it's going to be him today. He or my mom didn't tell me anything like he's getting off work early today, but I don't know I just have this feeling. That doesn't appear to be sound reasoning on the child's part. That would be an example of irrational faith.
The above examples are things we can all observe and evaluate.
Religious faith is where I struggled to place on the spectrum because as you said, "faith appears to be another word for trust or belief." If a person who did things to me that I did not consider loving or had the power to take hurtful things but didn't, and then turned around and said "I love you", I did admit that I would believe that person. I would trust that this is their perception of love, this is their truth. However, it doesn't mean I have to conduct myself in the same manner. My mental perception of love can be different.
It is true that when the rubber hits the road, my ideal is not so ideal and this is where people turn to differing sources. This is why I struggled where to place religious belief. To me, followers of a faith share in the same perception as the person who wrote their holy book. No doubt that the Christian Bible has provided a description of humanity that is relatable and observable to many people. Perhaps that is where they find their truths. The book wasn't relatable enough to me as much as those elementary stories about how children received time-out for behaviors that I had to beg for forgiveness.
And so the topic is about whether raising children in a religion is indoctrination. I think for many religious people the answer is no because they have a different perception of the ideals of the Bible, one that does allow to know the difference between rational faith, irrational faith, or religious faith as the one you describe in this paragraph. And they know these differences because they have a discussion about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab
Here's the basic facts that we do have: we all die and we do not know what happens after that, if anything. I have not done any extensive study but it appears to me that basically religion offers an answer as to what happens after we die (that answer may be nothing; it also would appear they give answers to other things such as the beginning of life, what should be one's moral conduct and how to reach the desired end such as heaven, nirvana etc. or if there's nothing then you don't have to do anything). Since we do not have any facts about what happens after death followers of a religion have to have faith in that religion.
Discuss your thoughts. Should children be able to choose what to believe and develop critical thinking and reasoning skills and not just have them spoonfed whatever the parents believe?
For reference, lets define indoctrination as teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs without questioning them
Children must be molded to some extent as they are a blank slate and not yet capable of deep thoughts like a teenager would be.
Do not steal, be nice to others, and so forth are things that parents "spoon feed" to their children and are right to do so.
I find being a Quaker, I am constantly redirected to think more and question more. To try and put myself in the shoes of others, to try and think of ways to help others, and so forth. So I think religion helps me to think more than I would if I weren't religious.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
