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Old 11-23-2020, 01:54 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Is there anything an atheist can explain to a believer in God that would make a difference or alter their belief that a God exists?

Is there anything a believer in God can explain to an atheist that would make a difference or alter their belief there is no evidence God exists?

Nipped for space.

Seems that's at least part of the problem that keeps this debate going for mankind since biblical times. Since the lack of evidence a God exists is not good enough, there really is no other better way to justify atheism. Accordingly, the belief(s) in God will no doubt persist just as long as they have already. All variety of them...
not with how some atheist present it.

science points to something more. trying to down play all beliefs or claims because we are worried about social change is a real hindrance.

I have no idea why we just say "its something, but it aint no deity." I mean look at the resistance to a cosmic mind.

I don't see it, but I can make a case for it using the standard model. why do some atheist have to fight even the hint of it?
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Old 11-23-2020, 02:23 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Is there anything an atheist can explain to a believer in God that would make a difference or alter their belief that a God exists?

Is there anything a believer in God can explain to an atheist that would make a difference or alter their belief there is no evidence God exists?
<snip>
Not sure what point there is in changing anyone's mind about such things other than in the most broad ranging way, so maybe it's all just a matter of expressing opinion regardless, but I often wonder. Is there a better/different way to point the way toward truth that can be better agreed upon (if anyone cares to pursue that goal as I tend to be inclined), or just what would it take beyond discussion in this forum to convincingly demonstrate to all what the truth of these matters actually proves to be?

Obviously if God made his/her/it's presence known in no uncertain terms, now, today, in modern times, we'd all have little reason to question God's existence. What would it take to prove the opposite, in no uncertain terms?

Seems that's at least part of the problem that keeps this debate going for mankind since biblical times. Since the lack of evidence a God exists is not good enough, there really is no other better way to justify atheism. Accordingly, the belief(s) in God will no doubt persist just as long as they have already. All variety of them...
Face it, LearnMe, you are rock-solid in your conviction that our Reality has nothing to do with God and you have developed a rationale that thoroughly satisfies you using the paucity (<5%) of evidence about HOW our Reality functions (NOT what it is) along with logic and reason based ultimately on that rock-solid PREMISE. You cannot comprehend how anyone else could possibly NOT agree with you about what seems so obvious to you. This is revealed by what you might call your "heartburn" that "Since the lack of evidence a God exists is not good enough, there really is no other better way to justify atheism." This really is ego-based hubris. I wonder what is it about your self-perception of your intellect and knowledge that gives you such unadulterated conviction about your understanding of Reality.
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Old 11-24-2020, 06:35 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Face it, LearnMe, you are rock-solid in your conviction that our Reality has nothing to do with God and you have developed a rationale that thoroughly satisfies you using the paucity (<5%) of evidence about HOW our Reality functions (NOT what it is) along with logic and reason based ultimately on that rock-solid PREMISE. You cannot comprehend how anyone else could possibly NOT agree with you about what seems so obvious to you. This is revealed by what you might call your "heartburn" that "Since the lack of evidence a God exists is not good enough, there really is no other better way to justify atheism." This really is ego-based hubris. I wonder what is it about your self-perception of your intellect and knowledge that gives you such unadulterated conviction about your understanding of Reality.
I don't see him as rock solid against god. I see him as rock solid religion is causing so much trouble I hedging what I am saying to help stop it.
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Old 11-24-2020, 10:04 AM
 
29,341 posts, read 9,526,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
I don't see him as rock solid against god. I see him as rock solid religion is causing so much trouble I hedging what I am saying to help stop it.
I've tried to fend off these misrepresentations of my comments and opinion so many times, with the same people, I can only come to conclude they just can't help but play their same tune over and over again. Like some people like to chant...

I always cringe when I read the heavy thick rhetoric that gets repeated all the time too. I'm not fighting or against anything like some have a need to describe. I simply "call 'em as I see 'em," and I'm simply not inclined to recognize what I don't see.

Unlike another false claim made yet again in this thread (that I won't bother to address directly), I can very easily comprehend how anyone might not agree with me! You'd have to be something of a nitwit not to understand all the testimonials given by people who think differently, believe differently, understand differently. Of course I understand how this happens, and I've also commented about this dynamic more times than I can count.

It's not ego that has me thinking what I do. I gain nothing by sharing my thoughts and opinions in this thread. My participation in this forum doesn't change ANYTHING about how I feel about myself. I'm just sharing opinion as honestly and straight-forwardly as I can, and I try to explain my rationale as best I can as well.

Where ego can be seen on full display is with those who have such a hard time participating in what I would simply call an adult conversation. Objectively. Instead of all this defensive objection about comments and opinions that don't line up with their own. That's not me. I don't mind the many reasons a person may be spiritual or religious or think whatever they do. I simply consider those reasons different from my own, and share opinion about those differences just like everyone else. My opinion about what makes more or less sense all considered and why.

If you ask me, the heavier the thick rhetoric in some of these comments, the more ego and emotion behind the comments. Again I'll leave it at that to keep it civil here...
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Old 11-24-2020, 12:05 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I've tried to fend off these misrepresentations of my comments and opinion so many times, with the same people, I can only come to conclude they just can't help but play their same tune over and over again. Like some people like to chant...

I always cringe when I read the heavy thick rhetoric that gets repeated all the time too. I'm not fighting or against anything like some have a need to describe. I simply "call 'em as I see 'em," and I'm simply not inclined to recognize what I don't see.

Unlike another false claim made yet again in this thread (that I won't bother to address directly), I can very easily comprehend how anyone might not agree with me! You'd have to be something of a nitwit not to understand all the testimonials given by people who think differently, believe differently, understand differently. Of course I understand how this happens, and I've also commented about this dynamic more times than I can count.

It's not ego that has me thinking what I do. I gain nothing by sharing my thoughts and opinions in this thread. My participation in this forum doesn't change ANYTHING about how I feel about myself. I'm just sharing opinion as honestly and straight-forwardly as I can, and I try to explain my rationale as best I can as well.

Where ego can be seen on full display is with those who have such a hard time participating in what I would simply call an adult conversation. Objectively. Instead of all this defensive objection about comments and opinions that don't line up with their own. That's not me. I don't mind the many reasons a person may be spiritual or religious or think whatever they do. I simply consider those reasons different from my own, and share opinion about those differences just like everyone else. My opinion about what makes more or less sense all considered and why.

If you ask me, the heavier the thick rhetoric in some of these comments, the more ego and emotion behind the comments. Again I'll leave it at that to keep it civil here...
Yup, many people are here to fight religion or push a deity and not talk about what claims work and what claims don't.

I wish it weren't so ... but it is.
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Old 11-25-2020, 09:44 AM
 
29,341 posts, read 9,526,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
Yup, many people are here to fight religion or push a deity and not talk about what claims work and what claims don't.

I wish it weren't so ... but it is.
I'm not sure I'm here to do either given the title of this thread...
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Old 11-28-2020, 06:32 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
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indoctrination:

Binary choices only.
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Old 11-28-2020, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,255 posts, read 23,873,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephariel View Post
Flat earth was never a scientific theory. Neither is using leeches to cure diseases.

What you are are suggesting is flat out dangerous. You are basically saying anyone can believe in anything and everyone holds their own truths.
Well, actually everyone can believe anything they want. That's called freedom of thought. It doesn't mean they're right. And the purpose of this thread...which is fading...is that some of us want children to have a degree of freedom of thought. And the question originally posed was whether leading sons and daughters into one religious perspective is faith indoctrination. To me the answer is simple: when all a parent presents is one perspective on religion, that's indoctrination. If a parent makes some effort to at least introduce other religious beliefs, even while still emphasizing their own religion, then I would not call that indoctrination. When I had a handful of parents literally say that they didn't want their son or daughter to learn about evolution (which was in the mandatory state and local curriculum) because, "I don't want my child to think"...that's indoctrination.

Last edited by phetaroi; 11-28-2020 at 10:22 AM..
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Old 11-28-2020, 10:14 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
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That aint bad, not bad at all .... I change it to meet more conditions ...


Well, actually everyone can believe anything they want. That's called freedom of thought. It doesn't mean they're right. And the purpose of this thread...which is fading...is that some of us want children to have a degree of freedom of thought. And the question originally posed wa whether leading sons and daughters into one statement of belief about god perspective is faith indoctrination. To me the answer is simple: when all a parent presents is one perspective on one statement of belief about god, that's indoctrination. If a parent makes some effort to at least introduce other one statement of belief about god beliefs, even while still emphasizing their own one statement of belief about god, then I would not call that indoctrination. When I had a handful of parents literally say that they didn't want their son or daughter to learn about evolution (which was in the mandatory state and local curriculum) because, "I don't want my child to think"...that's indoctrination.
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Old 11-28-2020, 02:08 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,507,234 times
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Generally that's pretty good. In fact if you translate that into education, a religion class teaching various beliefs would not infringe the 'keep religion out of school' rule, just as teaching the Bible as literature - if the Quran, Bhaghavad Gita, Tripitaka, Analects, Greek Myths etc. are also taught - as works of literature.

Equal (limited) time given to each before moving on to Shakespeare, The Odyssey and the tale of Sinuhe would not be regarded as 'indoctrination'. Because...it wouldn't be.
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