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i am comparing notes with another poster.
this thread is sharing views.
it is not addressing evidence.
if that is of interest, then someone can start a thread on that topic.
a thread asking "what do you believe about _______" is a different conversation and topic than a thread asking "what is the evidence for what you believe about ______"
it is already a spirit. a spirit from God. put into the human infant. and then it leaves the human when the physical body dies. that is what you have described. it is not new when it goes into the human infant. it is not new when it leaves the dead human body. it is the same spirit. it has just briefly inhabited for a short time that human body.
the spirit is not new so it can't be a "born as a newborn upon our death." the only thing that is newly born is the physical human infant.
you have mentioned that energy simply changes states and you are calling that birth. well, when ice is formed from a bowl of water, no one says "ice was born." when clouds appear in the sky no one says "clouds are newborn." they are simply water changing form. but it is not "new water." it is the same water just changing shape and form. puddle to ice to steam to clouds to rain back to puddle.
the water does not die. the water is not born. the water does not grow and reproduce.
same with a soul or spirit.
if you walk into a store or put on raincoat, and then after a while leave the store or take off the raincoat, you are not "born as a newborn." you simply removed or exited from a physical covering.
when you describe the mechanics of a soul which is part of God entering the body when a baby is born and then leaving the body when the physical body dies, that is exactly the mechanics i also understand and describe.
WE must disagree, Tzaph and nevermind phet, this is about sharing and comparing our BELIEFS. I believe the Spirit in each of us is entirely unique because it is shaped by unrepeatable and unique circumstances, experiences, talents, abilities, knowledge, and skill acquisition, etc. The Spirit that has become ME (as expressed here in the forum using my consciousness) is totally unique and never before has it ever existed nor will any other Spirit ever match it. It began as a seed (potential Spirit) completely unaware and acquired its conscious awareness, character, and attributes entirely during this physical existence. Whether or not ancestral Spirits who have become part of God's Oneness consciousness had or have a hand in shaping my unique Spirit is unknown. But there is no doubt that God has had a hand in it via my encounters. It is my unique consciousness, character, and attributes that will be born upon my physical death to start its Spiritual life as a newborn Spirit.
i am comparing notes with another poster.
this thread is sharing views.
it is not addressing evidence.
if that is of interest, then someone can start a thread on that topic.
a thread asking "what do you believe about _______" is a different conversation and topic than a thread asking "what is the evidence for what you believe about ______"
Of course. The 'Just sayin' not arguin' excuse is always worth a try to get away with making Faith -claims without having to back them up.
i am comparing notes with another poster.
this thread is sharing views.
it is not addressing evidence.
if that is of interest, then someone can start a thread on that topic.
a thread asking "what do you believe about _______" is a different conversation and topic than a thread asking "what is the evidence for what you believe about ______"
WE must disagree, Tzaph and nevermind phet, this is about sharing and comparing our BELIEFS. I believe the Spirit in each of us is entirely unique because it is shaped by unrepeatable and unique circumstances, experiences, talents, abilities, knowledge, and skill acquisition, etc. The Spirit that has become ME (as expressed here in the forum using my consciousness) is totally unique and never before has it ever existed nor will any other Spirit ever match it. It began as a seed (potential Spirit) completely unaware and acquired its conscious awareness, character, and attributes entirely during this physical existence. Whether or not ancestral Spirits who have become part of God's Oneness consciousness had or have a hand in shaping my unique Spirit is unknown. But there is no doubt that God has had a hand in it via my encounters. It is my unique consciousness, character, and attributes that will be born upon my physical death to start its Spiritual life as a newborn Spirit.
You are convoluting Consciousness and spirit/soul/atma. Spirit is untouched by your experiences, it is NOT you, it is a witness of your consciousness, it always belongs to god. Your consciousness is made up of your experience and actions as you engage with a world that is unreal and impermanent, and it is ignorance that makes you believe it is all that you are. This is false.
What you are is your soul which is eternal, pure, complete, and at peace always. What we feel as love comes from there. All beings love themselves first.
ETA: the soul/spirit/atma illuminates your consciousness, but is not affected by it in anyway. It is self shining and self-luminant.
WE must disagree, Tzaph and nevermind phet, this is about sharing and comparing our BELIEFS. I believe the Spirit in each of us is entirely unique because it is shaped by unrepeatable and unique circumstances, experiences, talents, abilities, knowledge, and skill acquisition, etc. The Spirit that has become ME (as expressed here in the forum using my consciousness) is totally unique and never before has it ever existed nor will any other Spirit ever match it. It began as a seed (potential Spirit) completely unaware and acquired its conscious awareness, character, and attributes entirely during this physical existence. Whether or not ancestral Spirits who have become part of God's Oneness consciousness had or have a hand in shaping my unique Spirit is unknown. But there is no doubt that God has had a hand in it via my encounters. It is my unique consciousness, character, and attributes that will be born upon my physical death to start its Spiritual life as a newborn Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
You are convoluting Consciousness and spirit/soul/atma. Spirit is untouched by your experiences, it is NOT you, it is a witness of your consciousness, it always belongs to god. Your consciousness is made up of your experience and actions as you engage with a world that is unreal and impermanent, and it is ignorance that makes you believe it is all that you are. This is false.
What you are is your soul which is eternal, pure, complete, and at peace always. What we feel as love comes from there. All beings love themselves first.
ETA: the soul/spirit/atma illuminates your consciousness, but is not affected by it in anyway. It is self shining and self-luminant.
We disagree, CB. Our existence would have no purpose and would make no sense whatsoever if what you call the unreal and impermanent experiences achieve nothing. I actually prefer to believe that our physical experiences serve to form our individual characters and foster the agape love of our Father. I would be thrilled if they were actually impermanent and not real (like dreams). The experiences of our Spirits that are necessary to foster love, compassion, mercy, kindness, gentleness, decency, and a complete aversion to evil, cruelty, selfishness, and greed can be and are often just too horrendous to contemplate as real (wars, disease, genocide, holocaust, torture, injustice, etc, etc.).
We disagree, CB. Our existence would have no purpose and would make no sense whatsoever if what you call the unreal and impermanent experiences achieve nothing. I actually prefer to believe that our physical experiences serve to form our individual characters and foster the agape love of our Father. I would be thrilled if they were actually impermanent and not real (like dreams). The experiences of our Spirits that are necessary to foster love, compassion, mercy, kindness, gentleness, decency, and a complete aversion to evil, cruelty, selfishness, and greed can be and are often just too horrendous to contemplate as real (wars, disease, genocide, holocaust, torture, injustice, etc, etc.).
I did not say the bolded. Our experiences are real to US. That the world is unreal does not mean it does not exist in a relative sense. From the level of the Universe/God/Brhman's perception everything is IT, there is no other. From the level of the individual there IS a world to engage with, with the instrument of our physical body, and our intellect and mind. But our inner spirit/atma does NOT in any way engage in that. It is our mind that experiences sorrow, happiness, our body that experiences pleasure and pain. Not the spirit/atma, it merely illuminates those experiences. A screen illuminates the movie your project on it, and the movie creates all kinds of experiences for you. But the screen feels nothing it simply is. And the movie is gone when the projector shuts down. The screen is the metaphor for the spirit/atma, it simply exists and illuminates.
All the other emotions and wars and holocaust you talk about has nothing to do with the spirit/atma or God. It is our bodies and mind that are the cause of those, our ego and identity with our body and mind, instead of with our true self. As long as we live in this realm of being where we engage with the world with our body and mind, we will experience and suffer the result of our actions in our body and mind. We can mitigate that with acts of compassion and goodwill, and the realization of our true nature. This is the message that is contained within all religious texts until they get corrupted.
We disagree, CB. Our existence would have no purpose and would make no sense whatsoever if what you call the unreal and impermanent experiences achieve nothing. I actually prefer to believe that our physical experiences serve to form our individual characters and foster the agape love of our Father. I would be thrilled if they were actually impermanent and not real (like dreams). The experiences of our Spirits that are necessary to foster love, compassion, mercy, kindness, gentleness, decency, and a complete aversion to evil, cruelty, selfishness, and greed can be and are often just too horrendous to contemplate as real (wars, disease, genocide, holocaust, torture, injustice, etc, etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
I did not say the bolded. Our experiences are real to US. That the world is unreal does not mean it does not exist in a relative sense. From the level of the Universe/God/Brhman's perception everything is IT, there is no other. From the level of the individual there IS a world to engage with, with the instrument of our physical body, and our intellect and mind. But our inner spirit/atma does NOT in any way engage in that. It is our mind that experiences sorrow, happiness, our body that experiences pleasure and pain. Not the spirit/atma, it merely illuminates those experiences. A screen illuminates the movie your project on it, and the movie creates all kinds of experiences for you. But the screen feels nothing it simply is. And the movie is gone when the projector shuts down. The screen is the metaphor for the spirit/atma, it simply exists and illuminates.
All the other emotions and wars and holocaust you talk about has nothing to do with the spirit/atma or God. It is our bodies and mind that are the cause of those, our ego and identity with our body and mind, instead of with our true self. As long as we live in this realm of being where we engage with the world with our body and mind, we will experience and suffer the result of our actions in our body and mind. We can mitigate that with acts of compassion and goodwill, and the realization of our true nature. This is the message that is contained within all religious texts until they get corrupted.
I have always been aware of this particular interpretation in Advaita, CB. I have always and STILL see it all as pointless if it achieves nothing or changes nothing. It makes no sense whatsoever. I cannot accept a purposeless and pointless existence, period.
I have always been aware of this particular interpretation in Advaita, CB. I have always and STILL see it all as pointless if it achieves nothing or changes nothing. It makes no sense whatsoever. I cannot accept a purposeless and pointless existence, period.
That is fine, I have no intention of convincing you of anything. We all choose the way that is right for us.
I am curious however what it is that you find that is purposeless or pointless.
The way I see it it is an attitude adjustment towards life that helps one to face life's ups and downs, sadness and disappointments with equanimity, acceptance, and contentment, and that helps me find joy.
The changes I make are in my interior life. I still stay engaged with my children and their lives, in my activism for values that I believe in, the way I vote, the causes I support.
That is fine, I have no intention of convincing you of anything. We all choose the way that is right for us.
I am curious however what it is that you find that is purposeless or pointless.
The way I see it it is an attitude adjustment towards life that helps one to face life's ups and downs, sadness and disappointments with equanimity, acceptance, and contentment, and that helps me find joy.
The changes I make are in my interior life. I still stay engaged with my children and their lives, in my activism for values that I believe in, the way I vote, the causes I support.
I understand. For me, if my existence here ends and has accomplished nothing permanent or relevant to God, it is about as pointless and meaningless as it is possible to be.
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