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Old 12-13-2020, 07:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
It is not always a need. It is sometimes the default that was taught, and it has not occurred to them that there is another way to look at things because the good/evil mindset is so deeply ingrained.

Someone close to me, a lifelong Christian, was having difficulties with depression, etc., in her fifties. She decided to go see a counselor/therapist, at a mental health center that was part of a Christian-owned health facility where she felt comfortable talking to someone.

The therapist worked through some of the things she was dealing with at this particular turning point in her life, but near the end, the therapist said "I see something in your way of thinking that needs addressing, how you seem to see things in terms of good and evil." The woman said, "Yes, that's how it is. There is good, and there is evil, and everything fits into one category or another." That was what she knew, what she had been taught all her life through her Calvinist form of the Christian religion.

This Christian therapist helped her to see that everything did not have to be viewed through that prism and that life could be less challenging if you looked at things from other points of view as well, that there were grey areas and things that could not be necessarily so categorized, and she kept it all within the tenets of the Christian faith. It made a huge difference in this woman's life.

It can be a burden to think that way. You are constantly on eggshells wanting to stay on the side of "good" and watching out for "evil" and wondering if you're keeping your feet on the right side of the line at all times.
I went back into the historical use of the word to understand why I chose the word "need". It certainly has different connotations, e.g "wanting, the desirability of having something". It also has a connotation of "compulsion", which is more my approach. The orthographic denotation is actually much darker.

Now my approach in using compulsion may be misplaced as well because the word has a negative connotation. Maybe "compelled" is a better choice which shares the same root as compulsion.

When I take my use of the word and your post, I am compelled to connect the concepts in this context. If you are taught something, chances are you will try to make sense of the world according to that doctrine not because you want to (need to), but because that is what is driving the thinking. This would be true for me as well.

This is how I was using the word need.
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Old 12-13-2020, 08:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I think some people need a defined source of good and bad in the world.
Perhaps. That is a problem with organized religion which keeps a hold on people with fear of punishment and promise of reward, just like organized crime.
This is not the case with those who seek spirituality. For them it is a simple goal, finding happiness. To understand how happiness is within us always, how we go wrong when we chase after it in ignorance, which invariably leads to sorrow and suffering. It is about how to live your life. Science, in this context, is neither here nor there. Science does not create happiness, it is outside of us.
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Old 12-13-2020, 09:54 AM
 
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Everything is outside of us, CB.
EVERYTHING discussed here, or, what we believe, is reality, is our projection into the outside per our concepts and inhibitions and prejudices. EVERYTHING.
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Old 12-13-2020, 10:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Why are you so sure believers too may examine their beliefs? Why do you think atheists too become believers?
Belief and non belief are not absolute, they are on a spectrum.
Not sure what you thought I meant. There are religious people who declare that nothing could shake their belief and I take then at their word. There are religious people who claim they have the one Truth and all other religions and beliefs are false and I take those folks at their word. And even o this forum there are people that claim they have gone on and out of their beliefs and I take those also at their word. And yes believers have become non believers and non believers have become believers.

Yes of course it is a spectrum and I never indicated otherwise.

I am afraid that you have me pegged as someone who is absolutely certain of beliefs and God's. There is a possibility that a God exist, that Arach something else exist or that MysticPhD God is reality is true. However on this topic I don't accept without some evidence or a strong persuasion to believe in that God or something.

And I'm not a person who is positive that no gods exist.
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Old 12-13-2020, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
That is a real problem, but fully knowing that, one would think that non-believers would stop asking for evidence from those types. What's the point?
If we do not ask for evidence, people can make any claim they want. We see this here with the word games people play, because people have an agenda. This is OK here, but in the real world, the agenda is often to legally take money out of your bank by selling woo. Check any creationist site and they will be selling books and videos, or the many fake gurus. Or martial arts using 'chi'...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0rWtZlzfGE

Another problem is our brains suffer from cognitive bias, causing us to make mistakes in our thinking. That is why we created rational tools to get around these problems. Why should I trust any claim made by someone who makes claims using a brain that is known to make many errors?

If one is selling or promoting an idea, or buying something allegedly mystical, I would require evidence. If one simply wants to believe, then if it does not harm people, I have no problem with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Anyway, to contribute to the thread--

One thing I've asked non-believers about for which I've never gotten an answer is, "Don't you ever use your natural intuition to find an answer or guidance as to what to do in a given situation?"

I don't see a lot of difference between asking one's intuition and asking for the same guidance in the form of prayer to a deity or the Universe or the whatever it is to which one prays for guidance. (I'm not talking about vending-machine prayer here, wherein one asks for a specific outcome.)

This is an area where I see spirituality and science coming together. Are our prayers/intuitive requests and the answers we receive through those practices the results of an unseen force or forces, or are they some as-yet-unexplained mechanism in our brains that picks up information in ways outside of our normal information-gathering methods?
Asking one's intuition? I have known things through intuition, knowing without rational thought, but for me, the nature of intuition implies asking is requiring rational thought. Rational thought is slow, our rational brain can handle about 40 thoughts pro second. Our subconscious is processing 11 million pieces of information pro second. Our subconscious uses basic rules of thumb to process information, which is why we stereotype people, or leap when we think we have seen a snake.

It also can respond to cues our conscious brains would miss, such as when you know or suspect someone is being dishonest because you have subconsciously observed their body language. This is intuition.

Naturally there may be something more to intuition, but how would one know without investigating the evidence?
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Old 12-13-2020, 11:12 AM
 
63,499 posts, read 39,795,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
If we do not ask for evidence, people can make any claim they want. We see this here with the word games people play, because people have an agenda. This is OK here, but in the real world, the agenda is often to legally take money out of your bank by selling woo. Check any creationist site and they will be selling books and videos, or the many fake gurus. Or martial arts using 'chi'...

Another problem is our brains suffer from cognitive bias, causing us to make mistakes in our thinking. That is why we created rational tools to get around these problems. Why should I trust any claim made by someone who makes claims using a brain that is known to make many errors?

If one is selling or promoting an idea, or buying something allegedly mystical, I would require evidence. If one simply wants to believe, then if it does not harm people, I have no problem with that.
Most of us feel this way about fraudsters and the like, Harry. But it is your firm BELIEF in the nonexistence of God as expressed in your atheism that seems to prompt you to attack anyone who has a firm BELIEF in God. The asking for evidence ASSUMES the existing evidence we have collected is insufficient to have a firm BELIEF in God but you seem to think it is sufficient to have a firm BELIEF in the nonexistence of God. This is in spite of the fact that we do not and cannot know the answer, pro or con. That is why your request for evidence about BELIEF in the EXISTENCE of God is counterproductive and pointless. Focus on the specific attributes in the many religious beliefs ABOUT God and leave the existence question where it belongs - "We do not know."
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Old 12-13-2020, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Most of us feel this way about fraudsters and the like, Harry. But it is your firm BELIEF in the nonexistence of God as expressed in your atheism that seems to prompt you to attack anyone who has a firm BELIEF in God.
'Seems' is the important word. Try thinking of alternative reasons why I 'attack'.
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Old 12-13-2020, 11:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Perhaps. That is a problem with organized religion which keeps a hold on people with fear of punishment and promise of reward, just like organized crime.
This is not the case with those who seek spirituality. For them it is a simple goal, finding happiness. To understand how happiness is within us always, how we go wrong when we chase after it in ignorance, which invariably leads to sorrow and suffering. It is about how to live your life. Science, in this context, is neither here nor there. Science does not create happiness, it is outside of us.
For me, happiness is not a permanent state I want to achieve. I want to be able to have other emotions that reflect a life lived of triumph and loss. While we may perceive the hold of religion through fear and promises, I would like to hear that perception come straight from the mouth of those who preach religion and from those who say others should follow it.

I won't be holding my breath. They just do not perceive it that way and for us to try to change that perception, no matter how good our intentions, the strategy is no different than that of religion, with the promise of finding happiness within us to avoid the punishment of sorrow and suffering for seeking outside of us.
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Old 12-13-2020, 11:48 AM
 
7,582 posts, read 4,128,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
'Seems' is the important word. Try thinking of alternative reasons why I 'attack'.
What I have gathered is that some atheists post here to provide an alternative view for the lurkers.
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Old 12-13-2020, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,503 posts, read 6,118,480 times
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Here's my take on this.

Being on a forum about atheism where you cannot discuss science is like being on a forum about Art where you cannot discuss paint.

I'm an artist. Paint isn't what makes me an artist, it's what supports my art and allows me to communicate visually what I see to others.

Similarly with atheism. Would I be an atheist without science? I have no real way of knowing. What I do know is that my vision of how the universe is constructed is supported by science, and without it I would less supported in my worldview and would be less able to communicate it.

Theism is based on faith and holy books.
Those things support theism and are allowed to be discussed
Without holy books, would there be still theism? Yes I have no doubt. But it would be in a completely different format and likely would not include any of the gods we have today.
If discussion of holy works were struck from the forum it would be a much quieter place around here.
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