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bold above, none of those are soul and spirit as used in the context of religion and spirituality.
bold above, no, soul and human spirit in the context of religion and spirituality are not "how we feel"
bold above, example of what atheists label "semantic fiddling"
No it is what the Believers call 'metaphor' (1). It is only the believers that do the semantic fiddle of backing up their Beliefs that human feelings and thinking are a way of contacting 'God' or some ineffable revelation beyond the known and attaching the additional meanings to the natural and mundane terms and, as you say, semantically fiddling the metaphors to pretend they are names or labels attached to the something which is thereby proven Real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
guess what. i'm not "labeling the whole thing god" either.
you are doing it again.
telling other people what they are thinking, feeling, and experiencing.
claiming to know what other people are thinking, feeling, and experiencing.
i hate to break it to you but your imaginary (in every sense of the word) speculation and conjecture about "what i want you to say" and "what it would be for me" are not how i think at all. what you have described is how you imagine other people think. for you, you have said you consider anything uplifting as "spiritual." then apparently since you are "uplifted by yoga class" you make the (to may way of thinking totally bizarre) leap that therefore "people who believe in God" label relaxing in yoga class as "god".
if it was a dart thrown at a dart board, it would not only be nowhere near the bulls eye, the dart would not even land on the dart board at all. it would be several feet away.
Your self delusion is exposed. Yes, you are labelling the whole thing 'God' as shown above, but somehow trying to blame secularists for doing that. I can see (I think We ) can now see that what you did is denounce secularists for saying that the God/spirituality -thing was just natural 'feelings/thinking' stuff that we (humung beans)did and was nothing more. Your confusion comes from assuming (on Faith) that it IS something more and (somehow ) atheism is adding an extra thing it invented (it was actually the theists) to the secular feelings.
And I just got deja vu about this. I'm sure I've had to do this with you many times before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy
But we are not. We are using the word as per the English language. We could just as easily say that you are "semantic fiddling".
But of course you are not and neither are we.
This is what it means to be a spiritual person;
Yes. To go back to the start. 'Spiritual' is a broad term that covers all these higher aspiration feelings, and also the tricks that the mind plays. This is rather like the old theist claim that this was a 'place where science could not go', but it is just where it is going now and showing reasons to think it's the mind doing stuff in itself, but not putting though a land -line to the ineffable, much less God.
(1) in the context of the Bible when it is evidently telling something that isn't correct. One either denies the evidence (fundamentalist -literalism) cherry picking (ok throw out everything that's wrong, but claim that everything else is right), or go Metaphoric. It's all true, cover to cover, but not always actually in the sense of being fact.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-15-2020 at 03:40 AM..
then why would you claim that theists feel what atheists feel and attach a god label to it?
look at me as an example. I believe we are in a living system. Being in a living system has some proof and is not an unreasonable claim. Being in a living system and part of that living system would be a spiritual thing for some people. Not me, I am not really that sort.
Being in a living fits a lot of what Christians. Hindu's, and what many other people say. They call it god and give it properties that it doesn't like the system has.
So theist attack a "god" claim to that position. And atheist do not see a deity thing involved. That makes sense.
"placing an emphasis upon the well-being of the "mind-body-spirit"
the definition you list includes emphasis on the spirit.
i am still waiting for atheists to indicate what that spirit is, that is any different from things we already have words for, such as feelings, emotions, physics, chemistry, happy day at the beach, pretty scenes, happy, joy, kindness, thoughts, enjoys the planet, likes animals. (but probably eats meat anyway so that kindness towards animals generally includes raising them to be slaughtered)
i have yet to hear from atheists in this thread (or ever from any atheist ever)
what they claim spirit is that is distinct from what we already have words for, distinct from the secular and the mundane.
atheists do not recognize soul, spirit, divinity as it is used in the context of religion and spirituality. they do not identify or recognize anything as sacred and holy. they are simply listing and naming secular elements (feelings, emotions, happiness, kindness, physics, chemical reactions).
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-15-2020 at 07:35 AM..
guess what. i'm not "labeling the whole thing god" either.
you are doing it again.
telling other people what they are thinking, feeling, and experiencing.
claiming to know what other people are thinking, feeling, and experiencing.
i hate to break it to you but your imaginary (in every sense of the word) speculation and conjecture about "what i want you to say" and "what it would be for me" are not how i think at all. what you have described is how you imagine other people think. for you, you have said you consider anything uplifting as "spiritual." then apparently since you are "uplifted by yoga class" you make the (to may way of thinking totally bizarre) leap that therefore "people who believe in God" label relaxing in yoga class as "god".
if it was a dart thrown at a dart board, it would not only be nowhere near the bulls eye, the dart would not even land on the dart board at all. it would be several feet away.
You really are being obtuse.
I was using the example as a metaphor as a means to explain what you asked.
You understand metaphor right? I assumed you would get that it's a metaphor given that of course I don't actually think you are sitting in a yoga class with me. Seems it all went completely over your head.
You are very angry for some reason. I have no idea why.
I'm done trying to explain anything to you.
look at me as an example. I believe we are in a living system. Being in a living system has some proof and is not an unreasonable claim. Being in a living system and part of that living system would be a spiritual thing for some people. Not me, I am not really that sort. Being in a living fits a lot of what Christians. Hindu's, and what many other people say. They call it god and give it properties that it doesn't like the system has. So theist attack a "god" claim to that position. And atheist do not see a deity thing involved. That makes sense.
we already have a word for being alive. it is being alive.
that is not spiritual. spiritual is more than that.
being alive is not god. god is more than that. the soul is more than that.
existing on a planet that has life is not god. we already have a word for existing on a planet that has life. it is called existing on a planet that has life. god is not that. god is more than that. the soul or spirit is more than that.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-15-2020 at 07:09 AM..
You really are being obtuse.
I was using the example as a metaphor as a means to explain what you asked.
You understand metaphor right? I assumed you would get that it's a metaphor given that of course I don't actually think you are sitting in a yoga class with me. Seems it all went completely over your head.
You are very angry for some reason. I have no idea why.
I'm done trying to explain anything to you.
frank S being a great singer is a good analogy here. For some, its not about the experience but rather what they are describing as the experience. Can what they are feeling and describing have some merit past just a feeling.
A god thing is like frank being the best singer of all time. Ok he may or may not be. That's a discussion point. But the fact that he is good singer is factual. Even though we can say that a song is in the ear of the beholder it doesn't change the fact that frank is a good singer.
You say your into physics, then you know its not about what they feel during the experience but rather is what you guys are feeling linked in anyway to what the system around is doing?
The answer is yes. Its is factual that the properties of the system are leading, or misleading, people to think its a deity. Well, what properties over lap that claim that we can say "oh, that's why they thought that."
?
You really are being obtuse.
I was using the example as a metaphor as a means to explain what you asked.
You understand metaphor right? I assumed you would get that it's a metaphor given that of course I don't actually think you are sitting in a yoga class with me. Seems it all went completely over your head.
You are very angry for some reason. I have no idea why.
I'm done trying to explain anything to you.
i am being sincere.
and i appreciate your trying to explain.
i am simply doing the same thing, also trying to explain what for me is so obvious that it makes no sense. it makes no sense to reject, deny, discard something and then claim to partake of that which has been rejected, denied, discarded.
we already have a word for being alive. it is being alive.
that is not spiritual. spiritual is more than that.
being alive is not god. god is more than that. the soul is more than that.
existing on a planet that has life is not god. we already have a word for existing on a planet that has life. it is called existing on a planet that has life. god is not that. god is more than that. the soul is more than that.
We have a word for dogs too. They are called pets. People treat them like people and have a special attachment to them. I don't, but I understand why people could be think pets are special.
But a system of "alive" predicts that you, and many others, would misunderstand it as a god thing. Just like some people misunderstand that dogs are pets and would be food if we didn't have other animals around.
Like frank being the best singer of all time. Its full of 1/2 truths. He's good, no doubt about it. I am not siding with anti-frank believers just because some "following frankers" are over bearing and obnoxious. And I am not saying that frank is best of all time just because you have traits about frank correct.
At some point we need to focus on what is actually happening. And be honest about it.
We have a word for dogs too. They are called pets. People treat them like people and have a special attachment to them. I don't, but I understand why people could be think pets are special. But a system of "alive" predicts that you, and many others, would misunderstand it as a god thing. Just like some people misunderstand that dogs are pets and would be food if we didn't have other animals around. Like frank being the best singer of all time. Its full of 1/2 truths. He's good, no doubt about it. I am not siding with anti-frank believers just because some "following frankers" are over bearing and obnoxious. And I am not saying that frank is best of all time just because you have traits about frank correct. At some point we need to focus on what is actually happening. And be honest about it.
the misunderstanding prevalent is
atheists missing the point entirely of "religion and spirituality"
regarding how soul / spirit / relationship with divinity is distinct from what we already have words for (feelings!!! awe!!! life!!! planet!!! kindness!!! happy!!!) and recognizing how the sacred and the holy are distinct from the secular.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-15-2020 at 07:37 AM..
the misunderstanding prevalent is
atheists missing the point entirely of "religion and spirituality"
regarding how soul / spirit / relationship with divinity is distinct from what we already have words for (feelings!!! awe!!! life!!! planet!!!)
recognizing how the sacred and the holy are distinct from the secular.
these things are your personal need for "contentment" and do not necessarily describe reality. Some people find contentment, happiness, and fulfillment in having beliefs that actually line up with reality.
no, sacred and holy are not distinct from secular. That is a trick needed to sell your belief system. All I need is do to is point to things around people and tell them them to use their "universe given" commonsense to form their own opinion. I don't have to outlaw science and outlaw any discussions on any other belief in [things].
The nice thing about using truth as a currency, I don't have to hide.
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) atheism is adding an extra thing it invented (it was actually the theists) to the secular feelings.
I'm sure I've had to do this with you many times before.
