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you are truly mired in the religious BELIEFS ABOUT God concepts and seem unable to extricate yourself from them. If what you prefer to call 'nature' causes earthquakes, on what basis do you determine that it is NOT God (the reason you, and I, and everything, including earthquakes exist)? Finding out HOW the earthquakes happen in no way enables any determination of the ontology of the source (called 'nature' or God by preferred BELIEF, NOT established fact).
I am definitely beginning to feel mired. Yes. Thanks...
So how much money and time are you going to give your guys to establish the truth about earthquakes that are caused by God? And/or to prove earthquakes are not caused by God? Remember, your competition is spending their time and effort to actually prove something that's there to be proven...
And se we get onto denial of the materialist default (validated by science) and so on, with your endless circular faith -based argument.
Mystic, get onto topic or get off the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
ISn't the topic Atheism and Spirituality? How the hell can I be off-topic discussing my views of BOTH????? Stop trying to provoke moderator action to muzzle me because you have no valid way to refute my views and you are frustrated by your own insufficient knowledge.
Can I suggest one of you start a new thread on this topic?
Perhaps others may like to join in?
I'd start it myself but one of you two would be better with the specifics of how you want to word it?
This discussion seems to be a sort of sub-section off the main topic.
This not exactly true learme. I think your position matches your evny in that you really don't have to challenge your belief system. There is no deity. You have excepted it, it works for you, and no need to question it.
In our position we have to account for what we are seeing. There is no deities (mystics is not a deity) and we still have to look and see if their are any descriptors that match better than "there is no deity."
People claim other things. I am subject to hard censor ship because I can't use words that convey that atheist and theist have have other claims and we look at all the beliefs and see what ones match the best. We see how they hold up yo what we know and how they compare to others..
You look at no deity type god and that's it. It matches bad religion and that's enough for you. So really you have way easier than us.
I envy a position or belief that is "full-proof" like Mystics, because it does not require the burden of proof to live on...
I also appreciate the fact that what I believe to be true as proven with valid evidence by science is not subject to debate like spirituality and all the notions about God. I believe in the burden of proof and glad I'm not burdened with the need to do much more than to simply reference the science that does that "heavy lifting" for me.
Time for me to sign off again, so until tomorrow perhaps. Cheers!
I am definitely beginning to feel mired. Yes. Thanks...
So how much money and time are you going to give your guys to establish the truth about earthquakes that are caused by God? And/or to prove earthquakes are not caused by God? Remember, your competition is spending their time and effort to actually prove something that's there to be proven...
You don't understand. An earth quake is too simple. But I will try.
Look at just p-waves. We see around us the density of everything increase and then density decrease. It apprease they moved in a straight line as the disturbance passes.
We say ... Hey, they look like p-waves in and earth quake. The we compare p-waves in an earth quake to what is is happening around us and see if it matches. If it Matches we say "hey, maybe something moved".
What you guys look like you guys do is say "it isn't a deity type god." and stop. we know its not a deity type god. But we we then say "hey, what do you think its is?"
I envy a position or belief that is "full-proof" like Mystics, because it does not require the burden of proof to live on...
I also appreciate the fact that what I believe to be true as proven with valid evidence by science is not subject to debate like spirituality and all the notions about God. I believe in the burden of proof and glad I'm not burdened with the need to do much more than to simply reference the science that does that "heavy lifting" for me.
Time for me to sign off again, so until tomorrow perhaps. Cheers!
His is not fool proof. His subject to questioning. I don't even agree with mystic.
Yes, you avoid the heavy lifting. that is fine. But when somebody is questioning it or processing it, why do you get involved? let them do the heavy lifting.
If you don't agree and don't want to do any heavy lifting, don't sit there and say he is wrong all day. Just say "I wait till more comes out on it." and move on.
I am definitely beginning to feel mired. Yes. Thanks...
So how much money and time are you going to give your guys to establish the truth about earthquakes that are caused by God? And/or to prove earthquakes are not caused by God? Remember, your competition is spending their time and effort to actually prove something that's there to be proven...
Stop with this straw man nonsense. We are attributing the cause to the SAME entity but we prefer different names because of our BELIEFS about it. I am not and no rational person would expect any such research into ontology. That is WHY science does not entertain questions of the ontology of what it is investigating. That is not its purpose. That does not mean, therefore, that science has concluded scientifically that atheism is the default belief. They do not concern themselves with BELIEFS about ontology. Only arrogant atheists demand that science be seen as supporting atheism by its neutrality.
The question of what spirituality means to me came up in another thread - so I'm starting a thread about it so as not to derail the other thread (thanks cb2008).
We have discussed this over on the A&A forum many times but it's been a while, and perhaps there are people who think atheists either can't be spiritual people or don't believe in spirituality, so let's discuss.
First of all, you can define yourself what you think spirituality means.
Honestly I don't feel qualified to define what it means in the traditional religious sense of the word, and being an atheist that wouldn't be how I would understand it. I can only speak for myself.
To me spirituality is simply anything that lifts me up. To expand on that by example it is anything that brings me joy or a sense of oneness or respect or beauty in the universe or my immediate environment. I'm a very visual person. When I say the word 'universe' (and I find myself using that word a lot) I'm always actually visualizing the universe in color to I suppose the extent my human brain can visualize something like the universe. A vast blackness of space with millions of bright galaxies swirling within it.. Even saying the word 'universe' to myself fills me with a sort of calm and I can feel myself breathing differently. It's hard to really describe but it's a similar feeling to the one I get when I see my kids sleeping. The closest I can describe is similar to that feeling you get when you are deeply in love.
I'm an artist so the other things that pop into my mind a lot are particular scenes that I see that sort of flash by: A red mountain with red light reflecting off it; A white and blue mountain top on a clear day. An ocean just before sunrise and all the accompanying sounds.
I only recently discovered that there is a condition called aphantasia which means that some people cannot visualize anything in their minds eye. I'm the opposite. I visualize things clearly. I plan things in my head. Anyway, this is a convoluted way of explaining that these thoughts bring me a sort of oneness with things that make me feel my place within the universe and it brings me joy.
Now I know other atheists that will dismiss all that as complete hogwash. Our recently passed poster called Grandstander always disagreed with me on this. He didn't believe spirituality was a thing at all. I do miss my arguments with him about it.
Please help me help our theist friends, by sharing your perspective on spirituality and how it fits with atheism (or not as the case may be).
The above is what the OP intended for the thread discussion. Let's go back there, and a she has suggested, start a new thread if you want to go into the weeds on something else.
His is not fool proof. His subject to questioning. I don't even agree with mystic.
Yes, you avoid the heavy lifting. that is fine. But when somebody is questioning it or processing it, why do you get involved? let them do the heavy lifting.
If you don't agree and don't want to do any heavy lifting, don't sit there and say he is wrong all day. Just say "I wait till more comes out on it." and move on.
I've done all the above and some for a good long time now, but all day? Another falsehood of many...
Whatever comments I address, I do so for a reason. Mostly just to correct what I think are claims and logic that are not what I consider worthy. Not right, and I do what I can to explain why I think so. I address many comments just for fun as well. Many not addressed to you that you feel compelled to involve yourself with. Sure looks like you're the one doing so all day, but again let's not take ourselves too seriously here.
I'm not going to pretend I do the "heavy lifting" that I leave to the scientists. I'm not like you and others who think you know better, but this doesn't mean I'm not able to separate fact from fiction, truth from conjecture. That's not so hard to do either, but obviously there are people posting in this forum that simply can't make those distinctions or admit to them. Sometimes it seems worthwhile to point that out, though we all know nothing really gets done here as a rule.
From my perspective.
I give Jesus Christ the very highest regard, both for who He said He is, and for who He is.
I know by experience both now and in the past of my 70 years God is faithful to those that "LOVE HIM".
I'm not talking about those that go through motions of religious works, I'm talking about those who worship God in obedience even when no one else in the world is aware of it.
Atheism is empty and without hope.
IMO it is an excuse to think one can ignore God and have no accountability on judgment day.
God is always revealing Himself to me, and to this day I do not understand all HIs preference to me over so many others I know, all the more I trust God watching out for me and healing me even from/through the Covid virus.
I had families and churches praying for me as I do them as well.
Do all get healed? no, but a great many do.
Athiest poke fun at the failures but their feet are far from ALL the facts, especially from the facts of each individual's personal relationship and their part in the future are unseen.
Being spiritually dead the Athiest can't fathom what is spiritual Like having no sense of taste, which I understand more fully having lost my sense of taste for some time during my experience with the Coved. ( taste is now returned )
An Athiest has no sense of taste spiritually and not having had it cannot conceive of it.
The Spirit of God speaks to me and interacts with me in ways only I fathom.
Not by scriptures alone and not by words of teachers no matter how eloquent they may appear, but an honest transparent prayer life.
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