Believers in eternal torment, how does that sit with your own morals? (myth, contradiction)

[RomulusXXV]

Originally Posted by JMDolan

So if to " perish " is a fate so benign as to actually be constructive in assuaging fears and providing soul comfort what was this business of Mount Calvary all about ?

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Well, John 3:16 pretty much reads along the lines of 'no harm no foul'. It doesn't remotely imply that eternal suffering awaits the 'unbeliever'.

Originally Posted by JMDolan

Okay well then we have come full circle back to my question based upon your stated understanding then.

If the scripture clearly states that to " perish " is no big deal in the eternal plan, and in fact could even serve to provide soul assurance to those who want to opt out of heaven, why all the drama about Mount Calvary?

Geez ...you're really putting me to the test. I have no idea as to the precise eternal plan of the Creator God. However, we are told in the Bible (from Paul) that the wages of sin for the human being is death (Romans 6:23). And, we see many examples from the Old Testament of a rather tyrannical God who doesn't hold back from throwing hissy fits of violence toward those who don't, um, 'love Him' and remain obedient to His rather harsh demands. It's even implied in Leviticus 18:21 (the verse before the 'man lying with man' verse) that God feels slighted because children are being sacrificed to Molech rather than to Him. When God refers to himself as 'a jealous God' He ain't kidding!

Yep. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ. So, the way I see this whole thing is that Jesus came to basically save us from the wrath of God. Am I correct ...anybody?

Originally Posted by JMDolan

Given your clear understanding that the choice between heaven or to perish is actually a matter of preference not punishment , six of one, maybe a little less than half a dozen of the other, then wouldn't you agree the whole sweating great drops of Blood in the Garden, the last supper, the betrayal, Rising from the dead, etc,etc,etc, & etc,,, is in context oddly way out of place in over the top overkill that really amounts to much ado about very little eternal difference?

Well, I certainly don't have a clear understanding when it comes to the Creator God's 'master plan' but I CAN read the words contained in the Bible. And, there appears to be one of two possible outcomes for human beings. They can either choose eternal life or choose eternal death. Those who choose the former are those whose sins are repented of and imputed to Jesus and therefore are 'no more' as far as God is concerned. 'The wages of sin is death' no longer applies to them. Those who choose the latter are those who did not repent of their sins and impute their sins to Jesus and are therefore still under the penalty of death. Again, someone please correct me if I'm misunderstanding 'the plan of salvation'.

Originally Posted by JMDolan

The whole determined salvation emphasis being way overboard if all we are talking about is people simply opting to go to sleep eternally? Why would anyone need to be saved, in such over the top dramatic fashion, from that?

Would you prefer that something more dramatic awaits those who 'opt out' of the plan of salvation ...such as literal eternal torment?

[JMDolan]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Geez ...you're really putting me to the test. I have no idea as to the precise eternal plan of the Creator God.



Well, I certainly don't have a clear understanding when it comes to the Creator God's 'master plan' but I CAN read the words contained in the Bible.

How curious then that your highly educated & quite clear understanding of the bible's term "perish" , so clear in fact that you quoted it in bold type " PERISH "just two pages ago as you elaborated to all those displaying such " ignorance" on it's biblical meaning, has suddenly disappeared from both your lexicon & your memory .
Very interesting sudden onset of total memory loss.

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

.. Now, while I'm well aware that many Christians are SO in ignorance of the very Bible they claim to uphold - it's actually quite appalling! - a very famous scripture (John 3:16) tells us all quite clearly that only the righteous receive eternal life while those who do not PERISH. Now, unless o!

Are you sure you have completely forgotten your " quite clearly " understanding regarding the meaning of "PERISH" you elaborated so in depth on ?

It was only two pages ago after all ?

Short term memory loss of that severity could often be an indicator of a more serious medical issue .
You may want to get yourself checked out .

I certainly hope for your well being that yours is a case of totally manufactured memory loss .

[RomulusXXV]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Geez ...you're really putting me to the test. I have no idea as to the precise eternal plan of the Creator God.

Well, I certainly don't have a clear understanding when it comes to the Creator God's 'master plan' but I CAN read the words contained in the Bible.

Originally Posted by JMDolan

How curious then that your highly educated & quite clear understanding of the bible's term "perish" , so clear in fact that you quoted it in bold type " PERISH "just two pages ago as you elaborated to all those displaying such " ignorance" on it's biblical meaning, has suddenly disappeared from both your lexicon & your memory.

Very interesting sudden onset of total memory loss.

What do you want from me? And why the obnoxious tone? Also, in case you’re not aware …I am not God. All I know from a reading of the Bible is, (a) that believers in Christ will receive eternal life and, (b) unbelievers will not. Whether or not that IS what will happen when a person dies and is presumably resurrected and what may occur BEYOND all that I have no personal clue. Happy?

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Now, while I'm well aware that many Christians are SO in ignorance of the very Bible they claim to uphold - it's actually quite appalling! - a very famous scripture (John 3:16) tells us all quite clearly that only the righteous receive eternal life while those who do not PERISH.

Originally Posted by JMDolan

Are you sure you have completely forgotten your " quite clearly " understanding regarding the meaning of "PERISH" you elaborated so in depth on ?

It was only two pages ago after all ?

Short term memory loss of that severity could often be an indicator of a more serious medical issue .
You may want to get yourself checked out .

I certainly hope for your well being that yours is a case of totally manufactured memory loss.

Listen up, smart guy …stop playing your silly game with me. I’m here to dispel that archaic and sadistic myth believed by most Christians that “literal eternal torment awaits the unbeliever” as per the thread title. Savvy?

NOW, if you should have your own personal take on the thread subject and can offer something constructive then let's be hearing from you.

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

I'm well aware of what YOU get from the text by Paul that appears to contradict all of the other passages of scripture contained in post #173. However, I repeat ...there is NO scripture that states that, "at death, the soul goes to be with God."

There is no verse that states some dude calling himself Romulus would be posting on a computer in the latter days of 2020, either...but here you are.

It's a basic truth, and it's spelled out by Paul and others in many places. Absent from the body, means present with God. The fact that they didn't use your specific sentence means nothing.

The only Hebrew word traditionally translated "soul" (nephesh) in English language Bibles refers to a living, breathing conscious body. Nowhere does it refer to the soul as being 'immortal'.

Sigh. Ok. Sure. whatever. Doesn't change the fact that many verses (quoted above) do point to believers going to Heaven.

I don't care what you think Paul said. I repeat ...the only Hebrew word traditionally translated "soul" (nephesh) in English language Bibles refers to a living, breathing conscious body. Nowhere does it refer to the soul as being 'immortal'.

If you're going to be that closed-minded, why are we discussing this?

Because it doesn't align with what the scriptures CONSISTENTLY say about the topic. Why else?

But anyway, why would it bother you that the dead are 'asleep' in their graves awaiting resurrection ...just as the Bible states? Doesn't it sound like a sensible plan that all are raised to receive eternal life at the same time?

Truth is important to me.

Also, do YOU believe that the 'unrighteous dead' will receive the penalty of literal eternal torment? I don't know if anyone has asked you that question previously but I'm interested in receiving an answer from you if you don't mind.

Scripture says that, so yes. Again, the passage I referred to about Lazarus and the rich man is but one example. Jesus referring to the fire that never goes out and the worm that never dies is an allusion to it, as well. Nevermind the passages from Revelation and others.

[303Guy]

If the concept of heaven and hell is Christian, then I would not expect to find it in the OT. Finding indirect references in the NT only indicates it's Christian origin.

"Our view that you die and your soul goes to heaven or hell is not found anywhere in the Old Testament, and it's not what Jesus preached".

Then again;

"Enoch and Elijah are said in scripture to have been taken into heaven while still being alive on Earth and not yet experiencing physical death".

I find it strange that with heaven and hell being so big in Christianity, there is so little mention of it in the bible.

If one wants to know about the killing of the Egyptian first borns, one can simply open the bible and read about it but heaven or hell?
I tried googling what Jesus taught about heaven and hell and more particularly about salvation. Not much apparently.

I did eventually find this;

Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain.

https://time.com/5822598/jesus-really-said-heaven-hell/

On salvation;

Unlike most Greeks, ancient Jews traditionally did not believe the soul could exist at all apart from the body. On the contrary, for them, the soul was more like the “breath.” The first human God created, Adam, began as a lump of clay; then God “breathed” life into him (Genesis 2: 7). Adam remained alive until he stopped breathing. Then it was dust to dust, ashes to ashes.

So if the soul dies (which according to biblical definition, the soul is the life of the body), then salvation after one's death is moot.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by 303Guy

If the concept of heaven and hell is Christian, then I would not expect to find it in the OT. Finding indirect references in the NT only indicates it's Christian origin.

Then again;

I find it strange that with heaven and hell being so big in Christianity, there is so little mention of it in the bible.

If one wants to know about the killing of the Egyptian first borns, one can simply open the bible and read about it but heaven or hell?
I tried googling what Jesus taught about heaven and hell and more particularly about salvation. Not much apparently.

I did eventually find this;

https://time.com/5822598/jesus-really-said-heaven-hell/

On salvation;

So if the soul dies (which according to biblical definition, the soul is the life of the body), then salvation after one's death is moot.

Actually, the fact that the Mosaic Law prohibited contacting the dead, see Deuteronomy 18:10-11, and the fact that King Saul consulted a medium to call up the dead prophet Samuel, see 1 Samuel 28:7-19 demonstrates a belief within ancient Judaism that there was life after death.

Isaiah 8:19 asks why a nation seeks to the dead concerning the living instead of seeking to God?

Sheol in the Hebrew Bible was not just a reference to the grave but also to the underworld where all who died went and had some form of existence.

[RomulusXXV]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

I'm well aware of what YOU get from the text by Paul that appears to contradict all of the other passages of scripture contained in post #173. However, I repeat ...there is NO scripture that states that, "at death, the soul goes to be with God."

Originally Posted by ”BaptistFundie”

There is no verse that states some dude calling himself Romulus would be posting on a computer in the latter days of 2020, either...but here you are.

Is that the best example of an analogy you could come up with, BF?

Originally Posted by ”BaptistFundie”

It's a basic truth, and it's spelled out by Paul and others in many places.

I can’t wait to see you present these ‘many verses’. And, if Paul IS stating what you believe he is then Paul is contradicting the Bible big time! I don’t believe that he is in contradiction, by the way. I believe that it’s you and not he that has gotten it wrong. There ARE other explanations for Paul’s statement that align with other scriptures on the subject.

Originally Posted by ”BaptistFundie”

Absent from the body, means present with God. The fact that they didn't use your specific sentence means nothing.

Paul – as is typically his style of writing – is simply using an expression just as he does in Colossians 2:5 where he states similarly, “For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit.” Here’s another:

For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:14-17 NKJV

Paul’s reference to being absent from the body and to be present with Christ is ongoing as we live on this earth. We see it here in Ephesians too:

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Ephesians 2:4-6 NKJV

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

The only Hebrew word traditionally translated "soul" (nephesh) in English language Bibles refers to a living, breathing conscious body. Nowhere does it refer to the soul as being 'immortal'.

Originally Posted by ”BaptistFundie”

Sigh. Ok. Sure. whatever. Doesn't change the fact that many verses (quoted above) do point to believers going to Heaven.

Where did you quote these many verses above?

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

I don't care what you think Paul said. I repeat ...the only Hebrew word traditionally translated "soul" (nephesh) in English language Bibles refers to a living, breathing conscious body. Nowhere does it refer to the soul as being 'immortal'.

Originally Posted by ”BaptistFundie”

If you're going to be that closed-minded, why are we discussing this?

Do you know what being closed minded is? Correcting errors where they occur and using an alleged reliable source according to Christians with which to do so (the Bible) has nothing to do with being closed minded.

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Because it doesn't align with what the scriptures CONSISTENTLY say about the topic. Why else?

But anyway, why would it bother you that the dead are 'asleep' in their graves awaiting resurrection ...just as the Bible states? Doesn't it sound like a sensible plan that all are raised to receive eternal life at the same time?

Originally Posted by ”BaptistFundie”

Truth is important to me.

Well, quite clearly you can't handle the truth.

* Credit goes to Jack Nicholson for that quote.

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Also, do YOU believe that the 'unrighteous dead' will receive the penalty of literal eternal torment? I don't know if anyone has asked you that question previously but I'm interested in receiving an answer from you if you don't mind.

Originally Posted by ”BaptistFundie”

Scripture says that, so yes.

No it doesn’t. You’ve simply been brainwashed into believing that it does. Moreover, even having been brainwashed with this evil belief should SURELY go against your own personal sense of morality, should it not? Would you honestly be comfortable sitting on your throne in heaven knowing that this thing that you kowtow to is presently enabling your friends and loved ones to be in literal torment?

I almost hate to wait for your answer, BF.

[RomulusXXV]

Incidentally, Jesus' tale about the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. If we were to demonstrate this story in picture form it would be presented as a cartoon ...the rich man in torment reaching out across the millions of miles of space asking Lazarus for a single drop of water to quench his thirst. This story is clearly NOT a factual account and it's left to our good sense to recognize this!

As has been mentioned, Sheol was not just a reference to the grave but also to the underworld where all who died went and had some form of existence. However, it was simply a Jewish myth but Jesus expounds upon this myth, referring to it as 'Abraham's Bosom', so that his Jewish audience could more follow and identify with His line of story telling. That Jesus actually gave a common Jewish name (Lazarus) to one of the characters in the story even more personalized the tale for his Jewish audience.

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

[color="Navy"]Incidentally, Jesus' tale about the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. If we were to demonstrate this story in picture form it would be presented as a cartoon ...the rich man in torment reaching out across the millions of miles of space asking Lazarus for a single drop of water to quench his thirst. This story is clearly NOT a factual account and it's left to our good sense to recognize this!

1. Is it? If so, it's the only parable he told that used a proper name

2. So what? Why would Jesus use something considered a false teaching in order to teach truth?

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Paul – as is typically his style of writing – is simply using an expression just as he does in Colossians 2:5 where he states similarly, “For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit.” Here’s another:

For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:14-17 NKJV

Paul’s reference to being absent from the body and to be present with Christ is ongoing as we live on this earth. We see it here in Ephesians too:

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Ephesians 2:4-6 NKJV

That's probably the most creative twisting of that Scripture that I've heard. Congratulations. Did you come up with that on your own?

At this point I guess we're done here. You are quite clearly going to stick to your convoluted understanding, or make up an alternate idea to believe regardless of what I say.