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That being said, I know enough not to commit the logical fallacy of the Illegitimate Totality Transfer. You apparently need to go back to school and learn some basic reading comprehension skills.
Your so-called logical fallacy is hermeneutical jargon to defend certain beliefs about scriptural interpretation. It is as illegitimate as the theological jargon of hypostatic union and kenosis used to defend the absurd Trinity doctrine. Take a legitimate logic course and dig yourself out of the hole you are in defending primitive dogma.
Your so-called logical fallacy is hermeneutical jargon to defend certain beliefs about scriptural interpretation. It is as illegitimate as the theological jargon of hypostatic union and kenosis used to defend the absurd Trinity doctrine. Take a legitimate logic course and dig yourself out of the hole you are in defending primitive dogma.
Do you know what the kenosis is? It's actually a heretical teaching. Do you know what the Trinity is? Can you actually define it?
Here's the thing: I see right through your nonsense. You'd demonstrated you're reading into the text what isn't there. You couldn't exegete your way out of a wet paper bag. lol...you think John 1 saying Jesus is the Word means that is the ONLY possible use of the word (see what I did there?) "word"? Wow. Ok.
Incidentally, Jesus' tale about the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. If we were to demonstrate this story in picture form it would be presented as a cartoon ...the rich man in torment reaching out across the millions of miles of space asking Lazarus for a single drop of water to quench his thirst. This story is clearly NOT a factual account and it's left to our good sense to recognize this!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie"
1. Is it? If so, it's the only parable he told that used a proper name.
So what if Jesus gave a character from His parable a 'Joe Blow' name to which the common listener could identify? Moreover, Jesus never spoke to His audience in any other form BUT in parables.
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them (Matthew 13:34).
This Bible of yours keeps tripping you up, doesn't it, BF?
Anyway, here's the second part of my post that you chose to omit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
As has been mentioned, Sheol was not just a reference to the grave but also to the underworld where all who died went and had some form of existence. However, it was simply a Jewish myth but Jesus expounds upon this myth, referring to it as 'Abraham's Bosom', so that his Jewish audience could more follow and identify with His line of story telling. That Jesus actually gave a common Jewish name (Lazarus) to one of the characters in the story even more personalized the tale for his Jewish audience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie"
2. So what? Why would Jesus use something considered a false teaching in order to teach truth?
By all means Jesus would use a popular myth with which to speak to His audience on their own level. You appear to have a very narrow view of both Jesus and your Bible, BF, and even Paul who regularly used hyperbole in his writings that you take literally.
Do you know what the kenosis is? It's actually a heretical teaching. Do you know what the Trinity is? Can you actually define it?
Here's the thing: I see right through your nonsense. You'd demonstrated you're reading into the text what isn't there. You couldn't exegete your way out of a wet paper bag. lol...you think John 1 saying Jesus is the Word means that is the ONLY possible use of the word (see what I did there?) "word"? Wow. Ok.
No, BF, that is your straw man version. It is YOUR pretense that Jesus is NOT THE infallible Word of God and the contradictory and inconsistent Bible IS that is the irrational and unsupportable conclusion!
Paul – as is typically his style of writing – is simply using an expression just as he does in Colossians 2:5 where he states similarly, “For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit.†Here’s another:
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:14-17 NKJV
Paul’s reference to being absent from the body and to be present with Christ is ongoing as we live on this earth. We see it here in Ephesians too:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Ephesians 2:4-6 NKJV
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
That's probably the most creative twisting of that Scripture that I've heard. Congratulations. Did you come up with that on your own?
Um, no ...I didn't come up with it on my own. I merely copied and pasted from the very book that you hold so dearly. I DID give the chapters and verses. You can find the above in your own Bible if you care to look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
At this point I guess we're done here. You are quite clearly going to stick to your convoluted understanding, or make up an alternate idea to believe regardless of what I say.
Here is another passage of scripture penned by Paul that clearly indicates that he understood that the dead are 'sleeping in their graves' until resurrection day:
1Th. 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
..."Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? [3] And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
As is consistent with ALL other scripture on this topic, Jesus is telling His audience that He WILL return. And, when He does return, then, and ONLY THEN, will He and they be reunited. UNTIL THEN they (since they would all be dead by the time of Jesus' coming) will remain in their graves awaiting resurrection.
Only those obstinate ones who choose to remain loyal to the erroneous belief/s of their particular church will continue to disregard what is clearly obvious according to scripture. Moreover, while in this dazed mindset they will continue to yell 'heretic' to anyone who appears to be rocking the company boat. And, don't dare to say anything negative toward their god who can do whatever he wants with his creations ...even if it means that millions are to be tortured for all eternity. What is more disconcerting is that this belief appears to sit alright with them and therefore speaks more about them that it does for their wretched god.
We're living in a world where lies are persistently being told and accepted, not only within the secular world but also within the world of Christianity. Children as well as their adult parents have been fed the line that the majority of people on earth will descend to a place of eternal punishment at death where - according to the Rich man & Lazarus story that gullible Christians ACTUALLY take literally! - they will be writhing in agony throughout eternity. Churches that teach this crud should be formerly exposed and closed down!
So what if Jesus gave a character from His parable a 'Joe Blow' name to which the common listener could identify? Moreover, Jesus never spoke to His audience in any other form BUT in parables.
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them (Matthew 13:34).
There's that little thing called context. Do you think he EVER spoke without parables? Or perhaps that reference you quoted was referring to a season of time when he used parables? Think about it. He ministered for 3 years before his crucifixion.
Quote:
This Bible of yours keeps tripping you up, doesn't it, BF?
Anyway, here's the second part of my post that you chose to omit:
It wasn't particularly relevant. I'm aware of the idea of Sheol, and it gave no additional info or concerns to address.
Quote:
By all means Jesus would use a popular myth with which to speak to His audience on their own level. You appear to have a very narrow view of both Jesus and your Bible, BF, and even Paul who regularly used hyperbole in his writings that you take literally.
No, I don't believe Jesus would have used a false teaching to make a point like this. It goes contrary to his goals, and shows him giving approval to the idea of something that is false.
No, BF, that is your straw man version. It is YOUR pretense that Jesus is NOT THE infallible Word of God and the contradictory and inconsistent Bible IS that is the irrational and unsupportable conclusion!
Again, you'd really do well to take a hermeneutic class. Or at least sign up for a community college class on how to understand literature. At this point you just look bad.
Um, no ...I didn't come up with it on my own. I merely copied and pasted from the very book that you hold so dearly. I DID give the chapters and verses. You can find the above in your own Bible if you care to look.
Here is another passage of scripture penned by Paul that clearly indicates that he understood that the dead are 'sleeping in their graves' until resurrection day:
1Th. 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Yes. Did you realize we are 3 parts? Body, soul, and spirit?
Keep reading in that passage you quoted. 1 Thess 5:23 shows you what he's referring to.
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The body will "sleep". Meaning death. The soul goes to be with God.
..."Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? [3] And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
As is consistent with ALL other scripture on this topic, Jesus is telling His audience that He WILL return. And, when He does return, then, and ONLY THEN, will He and they be reunited. UNTIL THEN they (since they would all be dead by the time of Jesus' coming) will remain in their graves awaiting resurrection.
Only those obstinate ones who choose to remain loyal to the erroneous belief/s of their particular church will continue to disregard what is clearly obvious according to scripture. Moreover, while in this dazed mindset they will continue to yell 'heretic' to anyone who appears to be rocking the company boat. And, don't dare to say anything negative toward their god who can do whatever he wants with his creations ...even if it means that millions are to be tortured for all eternity. What is more disconcerting is that this belief appears to sit alright with them and therefore speaks more about them that it does for their wretched god.
We're living in a world where lies are persistently being told and accepted, not only within the secular world but also within the world of Christianity. Children as well as their adult parents have been fed the line that the majority of people on earth will descend to a place of eternal punishment at death where - according to the Rich man & Lazarus story that gullible Christians ACTUALLY take literally! - they will be writhing in agony throughout eternity. Churches that teach this crud should be formerly exposed and closed down!
Yes. And we see that play out in Revelation. But again, if we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. That's what Scripture says. And John 14 does not nullify that.
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- they will be writhing in agony throughout eternity. Churches that teach this crud should be formerly exposed and closed down!
