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We all agree it's wrong. I'm asking you for our standard of right and wrong. What is it? Do you have one?
It's easy to put on the self-righteous act, and be offended rather than to answer the simple question, but I'm asking you if you can name a reason WHY something is immoral other than you simply don't like it?
The believer's, especially the Baptists', stock in trade.
To answer your question, Natural Law. Man's innate understanding that it is wrong to be enslaved or to enslave. That you have to ask is shocking, and No, I don't believe you think it is bad.
The believer's, especially the Baptists', stock in trade.
What?
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To answer your question, Natural Law. Man's innate understanding that it is wrong to be enslaved or to enslave. That you have to ask is shocking, and No, I don't believe you think it is bad.
There are some people that think it's ok to enslave others. What would you say to them?
That you even have to ask that question is astounding. Since it is not OK for anyone to own me, it is also not OK for me to own anyone. Simple. It does harm to another person. It violates that most basic of human precepts: Be excellent to each other.
Some people think it's perfectly fine. You are dodging the question.
You say it's because it causes harm? Why is that the standard? Don't just say it is. Explain WHY it is. Until you can do that, it's nothing but an opinion.
But isn't non believers morality supposed to be subjective and that of the Bible objective? If they are both subjective then there is zero reason for us to even bring it up.
Do you personally accept slavery as described in the OT to be moral or not?
Do you think that murder is moral based only upon what is written in the Bible or do you believe that a person can be of the opinion that murder is not moral without using God or the Bible?
That is what the topic is actually about. Slavery was brought up to show that our current morality would not support slavery as described with the pages of the Bible.
Hmmm....What you wrote here is kind of convoluting what the 'argument' is about. It's not about whether the bible is literally "moral". Obviously, there are plenty of instances in the bible that *we*, as modern people, wouldn't consider to be "moral". There was murder...and rape...and lying...and slavery...and theft...and selfishness...etc.
If you take the bible literally, I can absolutely see why an atheist would be an atheist. BUT....
...if you see it in a more philosophical view, it makes more sense.
If you read the bible, it often says (paraphrasing), "Don't judge". But there's another passage that tells us, not to judge "WRONGLY". That tells *me*, that it's o.k. to judge. As long as I don't do it "wrongly"....that is, not to judge without ALL of the facts of a situation. So, to *me*, it's o.k. to judge...as long as we have ALL of the facts. How often does that happen?
Do I "accept slavery as described in the bible"? The bible describes slavery in different ways. You seem to believe that being a "slave" is horrible because of your thinking about slavery in the 17th century America. It's been gone over time and time again, that "slavery" in ancient times wasn't the same thing as what happened in the 17th century. A number of "slaves" in biblical times were actually a LOT better off as "slaves" than they were as free people.
Think of it like this. Some people believe that marriage is "just a piece of paper". "Slavery" may have been the same way.
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Do you think that murder is moral based only upon what is written in the Bible or do you believe that a person can be of the opinion that murder is not moral without using God or the Bible?
No, I don't think that murder is based SOLELY on the bible. Obviously, there were laws against murder before the first word of the bible was ever written.
But the problem is that, no matter whether there's a "bible" or, the other 100,000 laws on the books in our legal system, SOME people are GOING to murder, no matter what. What method do THEY use to justify their actions?
The point is about justification. Most of us believe that murder is 'wrong'. But where does that belief come from? Some believe that it's sort of 'innate'. Others believe that 'innateness' comes from a Creator...and NOT something that we're simply 'born with'.
Yes, our current "morality" wouldn't support the "slavery" of ancient times. But, so what?
After all, what exactly IS our current "morality"?
Some people think it's perfectly fine. You are dodging the question.
You say it's because it causes harm? Why is that the standard? Don't just say it is. Explain WHY it is. Until you can do that, it's nothing but an opinion.
Is it not just your opinion that slave owners in the States were immoral owning slaves. And your opinion that they read the Bible incorrectly? They believed that the Bibke supported their owning slaves.
As I mentioned if we as a society agree that we'll being is our goal of morality then not owning slaves would be objective morality. You are pleading for a subjective morality, your God, to be morality and then discard his giving regulations on owning and treating slaves.
Why do you insist that we must get our morality from a higher source of it is just an opinion? Especially when your opinion is that other higher authorities than yours are false.
Can you not see the double standard in your view of people's morality?
Can you make moral judgements on things that are not specifically mentioned in your Bible?
STILL don't have a clue what you're actually saying, but ok. Sure.
"...don't have a clue..."
Obviously not
You asked what do I say to those who think it is ok to enslave others, and my answer is to direct them to the gallows for HANGING. Is that really hard to understand?
I think slavery should be a capitol offense, and I don't give a rat's ass what your scripture says or doesn't say about it.
I have to say that your attitude towards this, that, basically, only believers have any claim to knowing right from wrong, is what really irks me about Dennis Prager.
It is the biggest insult you Kool-Aid cravers make
Hmmm....What you wrote here is kind of convoluting what the 'argument' is about. It's not about whether the bible is literally "moral". Obviously, there are plenty of instances in the bible that *we*, as modern people, wouldn't consider to be "moral". There was murder...and rape...and lying...and slavery...and theft...and selfishness...etc.
If you take the bible literally, I can absolutely see why an atheist would be an atheist. BUT....
...if you see it in a more philosophical view, it makes more sense.
If you read the bible, it often says (paraphrasing), "Don't judge". But there's another passage that tells us, not to judge "WRONGLY". That tells *me*, that it's o.k. to judge. As long as I don't do it "wrongly"....that is, not to judge without ALL of the facts of a situation. So, to *me*, it's o.k. to judge...as long as we have ALL of the facts. How often does that happen?
Mine is a response to you need a God in order to know murder is immoral.
And BaptistFundie believes that we must get our morals from the Bibke and has to bend and twist to excuse slavery in the Bible was both moral and different from slavery in the States. And he takes the Bible literal.
I personally do not believe a God must exist in order for me to know that murder is not moral. I personally think that we can be moral if no God exists.
When believers tell me I can't know what is moral without their God or I can't love my wife without believing in God or that only their God is true and all other God's are false then I will argue against their beliefs.
The b treatment of gays until very recently, the pogroms and blood libel against Jews (ethnic Jew here), the religious wars of past and present are all evident that the Bible is NOT philosophical to many believers but the literal truth that gets creationists taught in science or has states making it difficult to get services that are legal but against a faith.
When fundamentalists of all religions stop being literal I will accept your notion that it is a philosopher source. When Christians stop the teaching of yoga to children because it is associated with another religion and hence is satanic I'll move in.
I do not believe in the Bible or in a God however I believe humanity has morals because individuals do and collectively we can decide on well being and make immoral things that hurt well being.
A simple question for you, do you believe that an atheist can see murder as immoral! As well if your God did not exist could an atheists believe that murder is immoral!
If you do then I would have zero reasons to bring up the Bible at all. It's for those who believe it literally and claim that without God I could not make the call that murder was immoral.
Now let's get past that point. I'm asking you WHY it's wrong. What about it is wrong, and what do you look to make that observation? Don't just beg the question and say "because it is", because there are people today that disagree with you. There is STILL slavery happening in the world today. Based on WHAT do you declare it's wrong? I will appeal to my faith. What do YOU appeal to?
If you met someone that owned a slave today in another country, what would you say to them to tell them it's wrong when they believe it's perfectly acceptable?
Give it up. It's wrong. Period. Is now. Was then. Only an immoral person would excuse it for any reason.
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