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Still haven't answered the question of other societies deciding differently. Or our society changing to determine some things that are evil are moral or good.
It evolves. You could have worked out for yourself that slavery was once ok, but now isn't. And education. Once democracy was considered dangerus. Now pretty much all nations pretend to do it even if they don't.
Society hasn't imploded so much that you aren't living a life that is paradise compared to just 200 years ago, when everyone was religious and atheism was hardly a concept.
It's a not unfamiliar error of Dogmatic thinking on your part - you think that we have to have unchanging set in stone dogmatic pronouncements and changing the mind on it invalidates it. Same argument used for science as for Morality.
But that's absurd, because changing ideas is what progress is about and denial of scientific or social progress is not a good thing, and indeed religious dogma has had to play catch -up to stop losing support.
That's debunk enough, but then you point to changes and say it's ok just because God says so. But that's the whole point. God's say - so is invalid unless there is a good reason for it. And if there is a good reason for it, God's opinion doesn't matter.
It evolves. You could have worked out for yourself that slavery was once ok, but now isn't. And education. Once democracy was considered dangerus. Now pretty much all nations pretend to do it even if they don't.
Society hasn't imploded so much that you aren't living a life that is paradise compared to just 200 years ago, when everyone was religious and atheism was hardly a concept.
It's a not unfamiliar error of Dogmatic thinking on your part - you think that we have to have unchanging set in stone dogmatic pronouncements and changing the mind on it invalidates it. Same argument used for science as for Morality.
But that's absurd, because changing ideas is what progress is about and denial of scientific or social progress is not a good thing, and indeed religious dogma has had to play catch -up to stop losing support.
That's debunk enough, but then you point to changes and say it's ok just because God says so. But that's the whole point. God's say - so is invalid unless there is a good reason for it. And if there is a good reason for it, God's opinion doesn't matter.
Right. So when society evolves to the point where murder is ok, then that's just how it is.
You can not work this out for yourself? Think of a society where every member is you. OK, a society doomed to become extinct, but try hypothetically.
Can you explain without dismissing others explanations as opinion?
I know hurting others is wrong. God has said so. I'm asking you why YOU believe it is. Why you think that is some kind of moral absolute, to be known without God. All you've given so far is your opinion. And when that opinion contradicts someone else, your opinion holds as much authority as anyone else's opinion.
It's not my fault that you can't seem to understand basic Biblical truths. No one here is suggesting that slavery in the "Old South" was good. No one is suggesting that race-based chattel slavery is good. You are continuing to dishonestly misrepresent me. That's really quite sad that you feel you have to do that. I'm sorry that you're such a horrible debater that you can't honestly represent others. So I'm done. I will not be engaged in your stupid reindeer games anymore.
No. You are being dishonest. Possibly you don't realise it. The fact is that Slavery of foreign peoples in the Bible is chattel -slavery just as much as Southern states slavery.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Right. So when society evolves to the point where murder is ok, then that's just how it is.
That won't happen so long as we don't allow religious politics to take over, where immorality is justified by 'god said so'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I know hurting others is wrong. God has said so. I'm asking you why YOU believe it is. Why you think that is some kind of moral absolute, to be known without God. All you've given so far is your opinion. And when that opinion contradicts someone else, your opinion holds as much authority as anyone else's opinion.
It shows how religious dogmatic thinking enables a view indistinguishable from Psychopathy.
Hurting others is wrong because they don't want to be hurt. You want people to expect your right not to be hurt. You should have learned that others have the same rights. Your Bible even tells you that, not that anyone needs the Bible. The Golden rule is worked out in a lot of other societies.
Why you think that a human universal is mere 'opinion' and you prefer to diktat of a mass murderer who does what he says is wrong and changed his mind is beyond reason. But not beyond blind faith which is why we call it blind faith.
I know hurting others is wrong. God has said so. I'm asking you why YOU believe it is. Why you think that is some kind of moral absolute, to be known without God. All you've given so far is your opinion. And when that opinion contradicts someone else, your opinion holds as much authority as anyone else's opinion.
No. You are being dishonest. Possibly you don't realise it. The fact is that Slavery of foreign peoples in the Bible is chattel -slavery just as much as Southern states slavery.
He allowed it for a time. He never said it was good. And he gave the allowance to Israel. We are not Israel.
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That won't happen so long as we don't allow religious politics to take over, where immorality is justified by 'god said so'.
Right. Because godless secular societies have NEVER done that? Never heard of communism?
It's all opinion, BF. Your explanations, my explanations, everybody's explanations. Why do you see some things as moral that others find reprehensible? Can you answer that with a concrete fact? I'm guessing not. And don't give me bible stuff. If your condoning of slavery is because you think it is condoned in the bible, in whatever form, then that's just another reason I'm glad I have nothing to do with your cruel taskmaster.
If you can't see what is immoral about owning another person and taking away their freedoms and free will, nothing any of us say will help you understand.
I'll tell you what the problem is here, Trobesmom, something you and I understand. It's a classic example of a person (in this case BF) who isn't wise enough (at least in this situation) to see when -- for his own good -- he ought to step back and stop talking. We often see this with politicians, but also with some other people who are in leadership positions or see themselves as leaders. They keep digging their hole deeper. We have two posters here who are, essentially, defending the indefensible. They cannot see that they are bringing great shame on themselves because they have gotten so in the habit of defending anything a christian says or does -- currently or historically -- that they have lost the ability to connect with the most basic, simple, elementary school lesson that most of us learned -- do unto others as you would have them do unto you. They are like lawyers who get their sleazy clients off with a technicality, rather than based on sound principles. There's such a thing as being on the right side of history...and they're simply not.
And this -- in the larger scheme of things -- is a problem with many religions and very religious people (and I am talking here about the institution of religion). People who get so wrapped up in the religion that they cannot separate the institution from the principles. We saw it in Jonestown, in the Crusades, in the Inquisition(s), in Salem...and so on. They get so wrapped up in the rules of the institution that they can't see that slavery (or murder/killing) is never "right". There are times when murder/killing it may be legal, there are times it may be unavoidable. But neither case makes it "right", and the same is true of slavery.
You're right. And that's why we're seeing our society implode in recent years.
No, what we're seeing is YOUR VERSION of society implode. And the religious right is doing all the right things to bring about that implosion.
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Think of a society where every member is you. OK, a society doomed to become extinct, but try hypothetically.
That won't happen so long as we don't allow religious politics to take over, where immorality is justified by 'god said so'.
