Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You all are too kind. I take time to think before I reply, which helps, because I can be sllllooowwww and need time to listen to what was said and then look at different angles and views. I can't do it quickly...not that sharp!
I think it is a scientific fact that slavery causes problems in a society like the oppression of a group and an unstable system.
The human spirit wants to be free the same way a bird wants to fly. It is instinctual. That is a natural law not a human construct.
Technically speaking Joseph Smith and George Fox are of the same religion.
Many Quakers believe that all religions have a connection to God, there are truths in all religions as there are different ways to interact with God. Individuals can in fact interact with God without organized religion.
Therefore there is no need to align with one religion over another and in fact no need to align with any religion. Just follow your inner light.
But we are off topic.
I will like to compliment you about your comments as well. Thoughtful and above average in this forum in terms of addressing the specifics, and here too much if not all you write is true. Of course, but then again religious people do tend to pick one religion over others, for reasons that go well beyond one's personal take on connections with God. Or why so many religions instead of just people "following their inner light" without all the religious trappings?
I'm following my "inner light." I'm not seeing any reason to believe a god exists, but I feel a connection with the same sort of thing that makes birds want to fly. Natural law. No religion. Not sure how correct it is to say that Joseph Smith and George Fox are of the same religion. That's the sort of stretch that begins to veer off the deep end of facts, reason and logic, because neither of these people are in the holy books of other religions, and people of other religions do not recognize these people like you do. Like Mormons do. Ignor all that sort of thing if it suits your narrative and/or belief, but most people are a bit more objective about what is common about these religions and what is quite different. Why people claim themselves to belong to one religion and not all the others. I mean...
Religion Adherents Percentage
Christianity 2.382 billion 31.11%[3][2]
Islam 1.907 billion 24.9%[2][3]
Secular[a]/Nonreligious[b]/Agnostic/Atheist 1.193 billion 15.58%
Hinduism 1.161 billion 15.16%[2][3]
Buddhism 506 million 5.06%[2][3]
Chinese traditional religion[c] 394 million 5%
Ethnic religions excluding some in separate categories 300 million 3%
African traditional religions 100 million[6] 1.2%
Sikhism 26 million 0.30%
Spiritism 15 million 0.19%
Judaism 14.7 million[7] 0.18%
Baháʼà 5.0 million[8] 0.07%
Jainism 4.2 million 0.05%
Shinto 4.0 million 0.05%
Cao Dai 4.0 million 0.05%
Zoroastrianism 2.6 million 0.03%
Tenrikyo 2.0 million 0.02%
Animism 1.9 million 0.02%
Neo-Paganism 1.0 million 0.01%
Unitarian Universalism 0.8 million 0.01%
Rastafari 0.6 million 0.007%
total 7.79 billion 100%
The oppressor making a profit or the oppressed having the fruits of their labor stolen and their inalienable rights restricted?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I agree (in fact I touched on it) that nobody wants to be a slave. It's a human instinct and a universal one - relative to humans, not a human construct.
It is an instinct of life. Dogs don't enjoy being put in a kennel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
But still it is not a law of physics, like gravity or nuclear fission. Take away humans and there is no 'freedom -instinct'.
It is a law of science, life itself. The desire for freedom is inherent within each of us.
If you could magically make humans go back to the stone age with technology, it doesn't mean the science of how computers work is not within the laws of science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Or why so many religions instead of just people "following their inner light" without all the religious trappings?
People have the freewill to worship (or not) as they believe. Groups often play a role in what they choose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
I'm following my "inner light." I'm not seeing any reason to believe a god exists, but I feel a connection with the same sort of thing that makes birds want to fly. Natural law. No religion.
That is your freewill. God does not make himself opaque so as to not reduce your freewill the same way people behave different when a camera is on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Not sure how correct it is to say that Joseph Smith and George Fox are of the same religion. That's the sort of stretch that begins to veer off the deep end of facts, reason and logic, because neither of these people are in the holy books of other religions, and people of other religions do not recognize these people like you do. Like Mormons do. Ignor all that sort of thing if it suits your narrative and/or belief, but most people are a bit more objective about what is common about these religions and what is quite different.
Joseph Smith is a Mormon, which is a type of Christianity.
George Fox is in the Society of Friends (Quaker), which is a type of Christianity.
I am off the deep end of facts, reason, and logic, because I think 2 different Christians are technically in the same religion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Why people claim themselves to belong to one religion and not all the others. I mean...
All religions have some truths and all religions can connect to God. There is no need to play any religion off of another one. We are all God's children and all will be saved in the end no matter our beliefs or lack thereof.
I choose to follow Jesus, I can feel Jesus speak in my heart during expectant waiting. I know he is real. I love his message of loving your neighbor as yourself and serving your fellow people, and respecting freewill of others.
The oppressor making a profit or the oppressed having the fruits of their labor stolen and their inalienable rights restricted?
I mean society operated well on a slave basis just as it did on a paid worker basis; both systems operated. Of course I agree nobody liked being a slave. Fo that matter how many people would do their job if they didn't need the money to live? How can you know that in 200 years' time we won't be asking 'How could people not know that wage slavery was immoral?'
Quote:
It is an instinct of life. Dogs don't enjoy being put in a kennel.
Quite true. No animals do. They can hardly Think about morally, it's an instinct.
Quote:
It is a law of science, life itself. The desire for freedom is inherent within each of us.
Yes, an evolved instinct. But it is not a universal rule aside form humans and - as you pointed out - bioforms.
Quote:
If you could magically make humans go back to the stone age with technology, it doesn't mean the science of how computers work is not within the laws of science.
Quite. Uranium was giving off fission before there were humans that could chip flint. While you can trace human morals back through instinct to the start of life and the formation of stars, you can't reasonably say that human mortality would still be there as a universal law like the speed of light or the decay of strontium, even if there was no life on earth.
Joseph Smith is a Mormon, which is a type of Christianity.
George Fox is in the Society of Friends (Quaker), which is a type of Christianity.
I am off the deep end of facts, reason, and logic, because I think 2 different Christians are technically in the same religion?
All religions have some truths and all religions can connect to God. There is no need to play any religion off of another one. We are all God's children and all will be saved in the end no matter our beliefs or lack thereof.
I choose to follow Jesus, I can feel Jesus speak in my heart during expectant waiting. I know he is real. I love his message of loving your neighbor as yourself and serving your fellow people, and respecting freewill of others.
The oppressor making a profit or the oppressed having the fruits of their labor stolen and their inalienable rights restricted?
It is an instinct of life. Dogs don't enjoy being put in a kennel.
It is a law of science, life itself. The desire for freedom is inherent within each of us.
If you could magically make humans go back to the stone age with technology, it doesn't mean the science of how computers work is not within the laws of science.
People have the freewill to worship (or not) as they believe. Groups often play a role in what they choose.
That is your freewill. God does not make himself opaque so as to not reduce your freewill the same way people behave different when a camera is on them.
Joseph Smith is a Mormon, which is a type of Christianity.
George Fox is in the Society of Friends (Quaker), which is a type of Christianity.
I am off the deep end of facts, reason, and logic, because I think 2 different Christians are technically in the same religion?
All religions have some truths and all religions can connect to God. There is no need to play any religion off of another one. We are all God's children and all will be saved in the end no matter our beliefs or lack thereof.
I choose to follow Jesus, I can feel Jesus speak in my heart during expectant waiting. I know he is real. I love his message of loving your neighbor as yourself and serving your fellow people, and respecting freewill of others.
Best I leave you be then, because I don't think we're understanding one another. You're not understanding me anyway...
I certainly understand how groups play a role with respect to what people choose to do, believe, join. I've been a part of more than a few groups. Not religious groups however. Not anymore anyway. I know what freewill is too. Always confuses me a bit when people reply with the obvious like you do here. Yes, Joseph Smith and George Fox are part of what anyone can refer to as Christianity as well. Of course.
You miss my point entirely or you don't want to objectively consider my point. I can't tell which, but if we were talking about cars instead, for example, one might like to consider the significant differences between a Lamborgini and a VW Bug. The differences that are obvious and why some people buy one instead of the other. Someone like you, however, would simply point out they are both cars and end of comparison. Okay, and perhaps that's just it. You don't care to consider these differences more objectively and/or why some people go one way vs another. To me, however, those distinctions are important. A significant aspect to understanding how religion works. It's not "playing" a religion against another to my way of thinking anyway.
I don't need a lesson on respecting the free will of other people either, though I know what a bell ringer that is when it comes to shifting the focus from what I'm explaining to more of the hand-holding "we are all God's children" sort of thing. Frustrating, but I get it, and I well understand, appreciate and respect your right to think, believe, reason and live as you wish to live. "To each his own" as some like to say. I wasn't referring to any of that sort of thing however...
Was fun trying to chat with you about this anyway. Cheers.
You are doing very well indeed. And I need to think quite a bit before posting (disaster - if i don't)
Slavery in fact worked pretty well. There were slave revolts, of course but then there were revolts over lifestyle, politics and religion.
I agree (in fact I touched on it) that nobody wants to be a slave. It's a human instinct and a universal one - relative to humans, not a human construct. But still it is not a law of physics, like gravity or nuclear fission. Take away humans and there is no 'freedom -instinct'.
Take away human, nothing, no consciousness exists. Except the order of things, which always exists. What is your point?
Well, if the OP is asking if there are any "scientifically verifiable" truths in any religions at all, I'd say this thread is pretty much just trolling. No religious truth is scientifically verifiable, which is why I didn't choose to participate in this thread at all for quite some time.
But isn't it also true that you neither need to be religious or Mormon to be chartible. In fact you don't even have had to have even heard about Christainity to be chartible.
But isn't it also true that you neither need to be religious or Mormon to be chartible. In fact you don't even have had to have even heard about Christainity to be chartible.
If there is an objective religious truth, it would by definition also be found outside of that religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Quite. Uranium was giving off fission before there were humans that could chip flint. While you can trace human morals back through instinct to the start of life and the formation of stars, you can't reasonably say that human mortality would still be there as a universal law like the speed of light or the decay of strontium, even if there was no life on earth.
I don't see what difference that makes.
Humans do exist. It is an objective truth that slavery is detrimental to humans and society.
I could just as easily say that if Uranium doesn't exist that your fission point wouldn't exist. But it does exist and does give off fission.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Best I leave you be then, because I don't think we're understanding one another. You're not understanding me anyway...
I certainly understand how groups play a role with respect to what people choose to do, believe, join. I've been a part of more than a few groups. Not religious groups however. Not anymore anyway. I know what freewill is too. Always confuses me a bit when people reply with the obvious like you do here. Yes, Joseph Smith and George Fox are part of what anyone can refer to as Christianity as well. Of course.
You miss my point entirely or you don't want to objectively consider my point. I can't tell which, but if we were talking about cars instead, for example, one might like to consider the significant differences between a Lamborgini and a VW Bug. The differences that are obvious and why some people buy one instead of the other. Someone like you, however, would simply point out they are both cars and end of comparison. Okay, and perhaps that's just it. You don't care to consider these differences more objectively and/or why some people go one way vs another. To me, however, those distinctions are important. A significant aspect to understanding how religion works. It's not "playing" a religion against another to my way of thinking anyway.
I don't need a lesson on respecting the free will of other people either, though I know what a bell ringer that is when it comes to shifting the focus from what I'm explaining to more of the hand-holding "we are all God's children" sort of thing. Frustrating, but I get it, and I well understand, appreciate and respect your right to think, believe, reason and live as you wish to live. "To each his own" as some like to say. I wasn't referring to any of that sort of thing however...
Was fun trying to chat with you about this anyway. Cheers.
For example, Quakers were abolitionists, because of our belief in every human having value from their creation and the necessity of treating people with equality and protecting inalienable rights for all. When abolitionists including Quakers and others abolished slavery it in fact made a better society. Slavery is objectively wrong, because it oppresses a group, leads to tainted minds, and makes an unstable society (see things like Nate Turner, John Brown, and the US Civil War).
Somehow when i think of abolitionists, I think of Fredrick Douglas. Harriet Tubman. Sojourner Truth. I never ever think of Quakers.
Somehow when i think of abolitionists, I think of Fredrick Douglas. Harriet Tubman. Sojourner Truth. I never ever think of Quakers.
That would be your failure to recognize that slavery would never have been abolished here without the support and efforts of the majority of whites and others of many stripes.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Beautifully stated, QB!
