Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-03-2021, 09:09 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
7,569 posts, read 6,018,004 times
Reputation: 6980

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Very well. I concede that you interpretation makes sense if the while thing is an allegory or something of the kind and none of it relates to real events. I presume that you would say that Pilate and Herod and other historical persons are just there to play their part in an allegory.

But If it is actually based on teal people and their ideas, at least about real events, then whatever is going on heaven, what is going on on earth, is an Adam (in spirit) being the 'last' thing that Paul is talking about, which is the Jesus who came to release people from sin.

I take your point that i have been 'conditioned' by the tale that Christianity has been telling for 1.5+ thousand years. That is the one I'm dealing with. Claims about heaven, and a Gospel that is allegory doesn't concern me any more than it concerns the Bible -believers.
A style of allegorical writing as seen in new testament literature would include actual historical figures, but symbolic references would be added. Sort of kind of like historical fiction, but the writer of historical fiction may write a story, for example, about Thomas Jefferson and Abigail Adams sharing a carriage ride together, where an an allegorical story might talk about the conversation related by Jefferson, full of symbols allegory and myth


There would be numerous enhancements and literary tools in use, which would speak to the audience of the time. Which is something I have always said, the letters and books of the Bible were written for a specific audience at a specific time, not to be understood outside of that context


Also, I had meant to place this link
https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/50/6/659.full.pdf

in regards to Paul's neuro-psych illness. I am not by a long shot the only one with this point.
If someone wants to believe Pauline Christianity, then fine, but for me, I would never ever take a "vision" (hallucination) f someone and interpret it as Divine, but I would take it as mental illness. And looking at the content, which is nothing good from my perspective, with the exception of Corinthians 13 I would wonder and question why anyone would want to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-03-2021, 09:42 PM
 
63,387 posts, read 39,647,364 times
Reputation: 7777
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
A style of allegorical writing as seen in new testament literature would include actual historical figures, but symbolic references would be added. Sort of kind of like historical fiction, but the writer of historical fiction may write a story, for example, about Thomas Jefferson and Abigail Adams sharing a carriage ride together, where an an allegorical story might talk about the conversation related by Jefferson, full of symbols allegory and myth

There would be numerous enhancements and literary tools in use, which would speak to the audience of the time. Which is something I have always said, the letters and books of the Bible were written for a specific audience at a specific time, not to be understood outside of that context

Also, I had meant to place this link
https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/50/6/659.full.pdf

in regards to Paul's neuro-psych illness. I am not by a long shot the only one with this point.
If someone wants to believe Pauline Christianity, then fine, but for me, I would never ever take a "vision" (hallucination) f someone and interpret it as Divine, but I would take it as mental illness. And looking at the content, which is nothing good from my perspective, with the exception of Corinthians 13 I would wonder and question why anyone would want to.
It is disappointing to see the misuse of the mental illness diagnostics popular today carried over to historical personages with far less than meager symptomatology. I retain the belief that mental illness should be restricted to diagnoses with detectable specific brain dysfunction but the mental illness industry is thriving so it is unlikely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2021, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,755 posts, read 10,211,309 times
Reputation: 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
So decades ago, I stopped celebrating LENT and Easter, and over the years, have come up with some compelling arguments as to how the mythology around the Jesus story came about. I have posted some of these points on the Atheist and Agnostic forums over the years, but I decided to go ahead, as we are in the Lenten Season, to put together a more concise narrative
I use the term LINT because Lint is something we discard, or in our case, recycle.....Lent is a season where people are asked to give up something, in my case I gave up on celebrating Lent...

I would repost this on the A&A forum, but again, the regulars there would ask me to come up with something newer, as though a more concise narrative is not enough. Don't worry, I get the same thing on the Football forum each season as I recycle the same old L A Chargers jokes....


To look at the Jesus myth, I am ultimately going to show how the resurrection never happened, never did and never could. But to do that, I first have to show the 4 gospels as allegory and myth, rewritten to be symbolic of the Elijah/Moses stories of the Old Testament. And before I do that, I have to show the influence of Paul on the 4 gospels, and the influence of the Hellenistic Greek myths on the Hellenistic Jews of the Roman Times, and Finally, well, to discredit Paul, which I have done already. It is with that that I throw Paul out with the Lint......so to speak

Paul is the central Flaw in the entire Myth. now we know Paul to be a historic figure, scholars are in agreement of the validity of Paul's existence, although scholars do also admit that of the likely "Disciples" of Jesus, some may have been fictitious.

Paul is an interesting character. He was influenced by some of the Greek mythos (resurrection, such as Asclepius , Memnon, Achilles ) as well as a belief in Oracles, such as the Oracle at Delphi which was common at the time. For those unfamiliar, the Oracle at Delphi was n ancient Greek Shrine located in Pytho, sacred to the temple of Apollo. The high priestess would enter the Oracle, inhale the noxious gasses, suffer hallucinations, come out and tell everyone of her vision which resulted from the hallucinations, and then the people, the philosophers would accept whatever they were told as Devine intervention from the mind of Apollo....

That was the routine, although the Ancient Greeks new little about Chemistry and the presence of hallucinogenic gasses. Medical knowledge was not that far advanced. So the Hellenistic Jews, like Paul, who spoke Greek and carried the same superstitions for altered states, lacked the medical knowledge to classify and understand any type of aberrant mental behavior. Psychiatry would not develop until 1808 and up until then, hallucinations, vivid dreams, visions were frequently attributed to Devine intervention. The people of the time, superstitious as they were and ignorant of underlying medical causes of such, would often report a vivid dream as being "A sign from God or the gods."

SO we turn to Paul who wrote before the Gospels were penned, travelled throughout the area, and oddly, never met Jesus. So he claimed. I find it odd that if Jesus had been real, and had had "multitudes" of followers, and had been so influential for the three years that Paul was in his late 20's, certainly he would have heard of him or at least crossed paths with him. Interesting, that the supposed "Messiah" who was so well known according to 4 gospels, never fell onto Paul's Radar, and never became of an influence until Paul was noted to be present and approving of Stephen's stoning. But that is another topic. And here is where the psychology becomes more complex.
A Psychiatry article published in 2012 talks about Paul's mood disorder, which bordered on psychotic, and ascribed Paul's hallucinations (visions of Jesus) as a result. I have however, long said, that is were more likely an Axis 3 diagnosis of Temporal Lobe Seizures which contributed to the visions. This has been mentioned by multiple neuroscientists.
But my point is, Whatever Paul hallucinated was just an hallucination. Dead people don't come talking to living people. Yes, people have dreams of dead people, I dream of my dead Grandfather frequently, but what I have are only dreams. Sure it makes for good horror stories, and it sells tabloids, but when we take the context of Paul being called by a dead Jesus, things like that do not happen. Especially if Jesus never was real in the beginning! But even if he was, he was dead, he never met Paul and while it makes for good fiction, it remains only fiction.
Looking on at Axis 4 and 5 (within the current DSM-V guidelines) We see that on Axis 4 that Saul/Paul had trouble fitting in . He is documented to be egotistical, which is a masking for his own self hatred and self inferiority, and he was described by some as a "rebel- Rouser" provoking the Pharisees and Sadducees to fight each other, irritating Romans and sowing discord wherever he went, according to ACTS. So we can see in an Axis 4 diagnosis, Paul had a very difficult time fitting in to society and the world. Which allows us to clearly give him a score of 3- to 40 on Axis5. 30: Behavior is considerably influenced by delusions or hallucinations or serious impairment in communication or judgment or inability to function in almost all areas

And that person, that "nutcase" is revered as a Saint today. All because of something he said and did under the scope of Mental illness.

When we were doing on of our required internships at the state Hospital we were working for the semester in the chronic psych ward. The Chronic ward was a long term care facility for repeat offenders, those who would never likely be able to function on their own, and were deemed safe enough for the most part to live in a congregate setting. The diagnoses were varied.
We had one elderly case who was Diagnosed with Psychogenic Fugue, which is now referred as a dissociative disorder but this was long ago, when a prior version of the DSM was in use. The patient was known to one day destroy all the artwork he made (he welded angel figures) and declared that they were blasphemous and graven images. He followed with poor self care, violent outbursts and threats to others, which landed him in the institution. He basically had a dissociative personality flip one day, for unknown reasons.
He would spend the day in the common room, walking around in circles, stopping to lift his eyes and right hand up at the ceiling, never talking or stopping. I had him in for a counseling session, he was not talkative and spoke very little, other to tell me of how evil and sinful the world is and how he must pray all day long, even to the point of self neglect. After the session, after he left, I told another intern "Well, read the Bible There's your Paul explained right there" We were corrected by a Senior Resident who told us that Paul was actually more of a complex case than this patient was. And he was right. Paul was a deeply disturbed, mentally ill person on so many levels. The other apostles did not even like him ! they did not even agree with what he said that Jesus said to him, and these were men who had supposedly lived with Jesus for three years, so they should have known what Jesus' taught......But along comes Paul, the bully, the abuser, the instigator, and the crazy man who people feared. And there was no treatment modality...no meds, no therapy, no help...no seizure meds, no mood stabilizers, no half way house......Just a lunatic spouting off that Jesus had talked to him and people better listen or else. and that Or Else scared a lot of desperate people, especially those who knew of the pleasure Saul took at the Stoning of Stephen.

So To look at the influence on the Gospels, much of it was forced by a man who was not in control of his senses. A man who lacked the mental capability to make the decisions he tried to make. A man who failed in society because of his inability to separate his illness, his hallucinations from reality. Keep that in mind next time you hear someone read something out of the Bible, written by Paul, and then ad "The word of our Lord"
More like "The word of a nutcase who we should not even waste time on"

In the next Lint Paper, I will talk some about Paul's influence on the 4 gospels, which are not history, are not eyewitness accounts, are the products of Hellenistic Jews who wrote in Greek, a language neither Jesus nor his followers taught, and are allegorical retelling of Old Testament Stories of Elijah and Moses, not literal or historical or even accurate accounts of Jesus' life and teaching. Rather they are symbolic allegorical stories written for a specific first century audience. Tune in next time to the Cat Channel for more Paul Bashing and Enlightening stories.
This age in which we live is an age of the decline of righteousness. And, as promised in the Bhagavad Gita, the Lord has manifested Himself again, this time with the name Baha'u'llah. This name means `the Glory of Bhagwan' or `the Splendour of Ishvara'. The coming of Baha'u'llah is therefore the start of the Sat or Krta Yuga (Golden Age). It is the time when people will return to righteousness and the world will be at peace.

4 - Hindu Prophecies
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2021, 04:09 AM
 
Location: US
32,529 posts, read 21,830,828 times
Reputation: 2225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
This age in which we live is an age of the decline of righteousness. And, as promised in the Bhagavad Gita, the Lord has manifested Himself again, this time with the name Baha'u'llah. This name means `the Glory of Bhagwan' or `the Splendour of Ishvara'. The coming of Baha'u'llah is therefore the start of the Sat or Krta Yuga (Golden Age). It is the time when people will return to righteousness and the world will be at peace.

4 - Hindu Prophecies
Do what?...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2021, 07:47 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,479,780 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is disappointing to see the misuse of the mental illness diagnostics popular today carried over to historical personages with far less than meager symptomatology. I retain the belief that mental illness should be restricted to diagnoses with detectable specific brain dysfunction but the mental illness industry is thriving so it is unlikely.
Point taken, but Paul does imply some disability that wasn't a regular thing like a hunchback or the pox. I don't think it matters much whether the vision that endorsed what he'd worked out as a theory anyway, was die to some freaking out, a mere dream or just thinking that whatever popped into his head was put there by Jesus. Whatever, it is his own personal argument designed to adapt Messianic Judaism to suit the Gentile Greeks, and replace the Mosaic Law as a basis for righteousness with 'Abrahamic Righteousness' that is innate and latent and needs Faith in God to become activated. Somehow Godfaith becomes morphed into Jesusfaith, but whatever. The Law was made not needed to be saved, and that is half of the gospel message, the other half being 25% Jerusalem was destroyed because the Jews rejected Jesus and 25% give freely and without stint and with a glad heart to the poor and needy; or rather to the church, who will look after them with your money.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2021, 09:50 AM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
7,569 posts, read 6,018,004 times
Reputation: 6980
Default I have upmost respect for Mystic so I will explain it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is disappointing to see the misuse of the mental illness diagnostics popular today carried over to historical personages with far less than meager symptomatology. I retain the belief that mental illness should be restricted to diagnoses with detectable specific brain dysfunction but the mental illness industry is thriving so it is unlikely.
Mystic, My Friend, the point is that Paul's symptomology was not meager, Hallucinations, visions, name change, psychotic behavior. I have postulated for decades that there was an underlying cause for Paul's behavior (Or behaviour in England)
I was told, growing up, that "Jesus talked to Paul" I do not believe that. Not in any way shape or form.

I do believe that Paul had a focal seizure disorder, and that his visions (Blinding flashes of light, voices) Were the result, his "Visions" resulting from post-ictal states in which he likely heard some Christian (who was attempting to hep him) and he , in his superstitious and limited scientific knowledge, mistakenly took these as visions from God. I have shown repeatedly and demonstrated repeatedly that mental illness, neuro-psychiatric disease and cultural views/understanding of illness can explain all of his behaviors logically and scientifically. No need for a "god" to appear and speak to him. No need for a "religious conversion" and certainly no evidence, none, zero, that some dead person contacted him.

I have said repeatedly that in todays world, we would have to consider anyone who shows up with a vision of God, and a testimony with which no one around agrees* to be suffering from some form of neuro-psychiatric illness, and guess what? in 100% of the cases , that is true! And guess what else? We treat them, and the symptoms go away. Most of the time.

In no way do I believe that Paul was anything more than a mental patient. he was not some messenger (prophet) from God, unless God happens to be real and can only speak to the mentally ill. And since I do not see any evidence whatsoever of that being the case, we are back to questioning the value of a testimony of someone who is not only not grounded in reality, but is influencing others with his fictional misinterpretations of life and religion.






* Remember, those who knew Jesus personally are said to have refuted Paul's testimony
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2021, 10:23 AM
 
63,387 posts, read 39,647,364 times
Reputation: 7777
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
Mystic, My Friend, the point is that Paul's symptomology was not meager, Hallucinations, visions, name change, psychotic behavior. I have postulated for decades that there was an underlying cause for Paul's behavior (Or behaviour in England)
I was told, growing up, that "Jesus talked to Paul" I do not believe that. Not in any way shape or form.

I do believe that Paul had a focal seizure disorder, and that his visions (Blinding flashes of light, voices) Were the result, his "Visions" resulting from post-ictal states in which he likely heard some Christian (who was attempting to hep him) and he , in his superstitious and limited scientific knowledge, mistakenly took these as visions from God. I have shown repeatedly and demonstrated repeatedly that mental illness, neuro-psychiatric disease and cultural views/understanding of illness can explain all of his behaviors logically and scientifically. No need for a "god" to appear and speak to him. No need for a "religious conversion" and certainly no evidence, none, zero, that some dead person contacted him.

I have said repeatedly that in todays world, we would have to consider anyone who shows up with a vision of God, and a testimony with which no one around agrees* to be suffering from some form of neuro-psychiatric illness, and guess what? in 100% of the cases , that is true! And guess what else? We treat them, and the symptoms go away. Most of the time.

In no way do I believe that Paul was anything more than a mental patient. he was not some messenger (prophet) from God, unless God happens to be real and can only speak to the mentally ill. And since I do not see any evidence whatsoever of that being the case, we are back to questioning the value of a testimony of someone who is not only not grounded in reality, but is influencing others with his fictional misinterpretations of life and religion.
* Remember, those who knew Jesus personally are said to have refuted Paul's testimony
KingKat, my friend, your diagnosis is consistent with current practice in the mental illness business. But the designation of mental illness is predicated on correcting the disruption and facilitating the normative functioning in society. Using normative functioning in modern society as a yardstick for primitive and ancient cultures is norming to the wrong standard. I understand that you are trying to reconcile interpretations that contravene your modern atheistic view of Reality and that is fine.

I would have done the same prior to my experiences (and what you would probably consider my subsequent theistic mental illness). Reality is not so thoroughly cut and dried as you perceive it, my friend. The existence of the Kabbalah throws a monkey wrench into all the interpretations designed for carnal minds. It suggests that John the Baptist, Jesus, and eventually Paul were very advanced Jewish Mystics altering the explanatory dynamic significantly, IMO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2021, 11:40 AM
 
21,866 posts, read 19,019,005 times
Reputation: 17980
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
Mystic, My Friend, the point is that Paul's symptomology was not meager, Hallucinations, visions, name change, psychotic behavior. I have postulated for decades that there was an underlying cause for Paul's behavior (Or behaviour in England) I was told, growing up, that "Jesus talked to Paul" I do not believe that. Not in any way shape or form. I do believe that Paul had a focal seizure disorder, and that his visions (Blinding flashes of light, voices) Were the result, his "Visions" resulting from post-ictal states in which he likely heard some Christian (who was attempting to hep him) and he , in his superstitious and limited scientific knowledge, mistakenly took these as visions from God. I have shown repeatedly and demonstrated repeatedly that mental illness, neuro-psychiatric disease and cultural views/understanding of illness can explain all of his behaviors logically and scientifically. No need for a "god" to appear and speak to him. No need for a "religious conversion" and certainly no evidence, none, zero, that some dead person contacted him. I have said repeatedly that in todays world, we would have to consider anyone who shows up with a vision of God, and a testimony with which no one around agrees* to be suffering from some form of neuro-psychiatric illness, and guess what? in 100% of the cases , that is true! And guess what else? We treat them, and the symptoms go away. Most of the time. In no way do I believe that Paul was anything more than a mental patient. he was not some messenger (prophet) from God, unless God happens to be real and can only speak to the mentally ill. And since I do not see any evidence whatsoever of that being the case, we are back to questioning the value of a testimony of someone who is not only not grounded in reality, but is influencing others with his fictional misinterpretations of life and religion. Remember, those who knew Jesus personally are said to have refuted Paul's testimony
people receive messages from their departed loved ones. people have visions where they see and hear things. musicians and artists and writers, as well as many others, commonly acknowledge this. if you are saying that makes them mentally ill, then your own capacity for rational thought is significantly and demonstrably impaired. it is you who is desperately out of touch with reality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2021, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,000,474 times
Reputation: 14068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
people receive messages from their departed loved ones. people have visions where they see and hear things. musicians and artists and writers, as well as many others, commonly acknowledge this. if you are saying that makes them mentally ill, then your own capacity for rational thought is significantly and demonstrably impaired. it is you who is desperately out of touch with reality.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2021, 01:53 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
7,569 posts, read 6,018,004 times
Reputation: 6980
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
IRONY
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TroutDude again.
Same for Mystic and Transponder

SO in my experience, people who hear audible voices or see things that no one else sees are mentally ill.
And with the right treatment, this can be resolved.


I find it interesting when someone says "God Spoke to Me today" Usually what follows is a justification of sorts to support whatever the person plans to say or do next, even if it is unhealthy or immoral. As for contacting dead people, there has been so many examples of psychics and fortune tellers, channelers and new age mediums who have been shown over and over to be hoaxers and con artists. People do not talk to the dead. Period. They may say they do, and they may think they do, but they don't.

As far as dreaming about dead people, yes people do, but that is not the same as having a real conversation or actual contact with them. Subconscious replaying of past experiences, thoughts, ideas IS NOT contact with the dead. Period.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top