Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Paul literally says revealed according to scripture. His logic his based on scripture.
CLIPPED FOR SPACE, GO BACK AND READ IT
Paul's scripture was the Torah. Many people today think mistakenly(So I have been told by them) that the Bible was Paul's scripture, The Bible did not even exist as the New Testament was yet to have been written. I think Paul would have been ecstatic for a short time knowing that his letters were to be Canonized.
Which does not mean we have to follow them today. We are free to be free of his prison.
But references to anything Paul said about scriptures has to reference OT/Torah writings. So when we look next at the 4 Gospels, written in Greek, by Hellenistic Jewish influence in many cases, we will see that the 4 Gospels are just an allegorical rewrite of the Torah myths, Casting Jesus as Moses or Elijah, and referencing OT figures recast as prophets and apostles in the Jesus Mythology. But remember Harry that Hellenistic Jews also brought an influence of Greek mythology and ideals into the Jewish faith, separate from what might have been believed by Pharisee, for example. This influence certainly impacted the teachings and thoughts of Paul, who was already struggling with inner problems and now trying to resolve the local mythology in conflict with the internal and external.
My apologies. I used that word because I knew it was inflammatory.
After more thought about it, trans is right and your approach is sound on this topic.
I am clearly in the wrong here, but I have pavlov's responses to deal with.
I always value your opinion, just as I do Trans' and Mystic's. We do not have to agree 100% but I respect you all enough to at least hear and consider your points of view.
Paul's scripture was the Torah. Many people today think mistakenly(So I have been told by them) that the Bible was Paul's scripture, The Bible did not even exist as the New Testament was yet to have been written. I think Paul would have been ecstatic for a short time knowing that his letters were to be Canonized.
Which does not mean we have to follow them today. We are free to be free of his prison.
But references to anything Paul said about scriptures has to reference OT/Torah writings.
Yes, scripture for Paul came from texts found in our OT, but he also uses a lost text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
So when we look next at the 4 Gospels, written in Greek, by Hellenistic Jewish influence in many cases, we will see that the 4 Gospels are just an allegorical rewrite of the Torah myths, Casting Jesus as Moses or Elijah, and referencing OT figures recast as prophets and apostles in the Jesus Mythology. But remember Harry that Hellenistic Jews also brought an influence of Greek mythology and ideals into the Jewish faith, separate from what might have been believed by Pharisee, for example.
It is difficult to forget something that is basically my argument, but I would argue the 4 gospels are an allegory of proto-Christian beliefs, using the different OT characters as Jesus to make different points. The OT is pro-temple, the gospels and Paul have Jesus replace temple worship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
This influence certainly impacted the teachings and thoughts of Paul, who was already struggling with inner problems and now trying to resolve the local mythology in conflict with the internal and external.
Maybe, I just do not like to argue about possible internal conflicts when Paul's letters are dogmatic.
Yes, scripture for Paul came from texts found in our OT, but he also uses a lost text.
It is difficult to forget something that is basically my argument, but I would argue the 4 gospels are an allegory of proto-Christian beliefs, using the different OT characters as Jesus to make different points. The OT is pro-temple, the gospels and Paul have Jesus replace temple worship.
Maybe, I just do not like to argue about possible internal conflicts when Paul's letters are dogmatic.
As an alternative to your lying hypothesis, Harry, I would argue that Paul brought a deeper understanding of the Torah to those who simply were not ready for it. The Kabbalah is at least two spiritual levels above the simple reading of the Torah and few there are who grasp it. Paul was apparently one who did and recognized Jesus as far more than another rabbi or worldly Messiah. The task, however, was to present it in a way that the average bear could get some handle on. That is not to say Paul had no personal failings or faults. (Obviously, I have no problem accepting his spiritual encounter with Christ.)
You, my friend, are the only one concerned about harming theists here, Arq. I suspect it helps you sleep at night to demean them and their belief in God.
Have you ever thought that your promulgations are not working in convincing anyone? What do you think you could change to get more to see your point of view?
Have you ever thought that your promulgations are not working in convincing anyone? What do you think you could change to get more to see your point of view?
Well, it would help if I did not have to repeatedly fend off multiple personal attacks of me, my views, or my credibility. Frankly, though, I have lost faith in the power of intellect since the diversity of knowledge is too great. God definitely seems to be an emotionally-driven issue, but not at all surprising given my own "come to God" experiences.
Well, it would help if I did not have to repeatedly fend off multiple personal attacks of me, my views, or my credibility. Frankly, though, I have lost faith in the power of intellect since the diversity of knowledge is too great. God definitely seems to be an emotionally-driven issue, but not at all surprising given my own "come to God" experiences.
a relationship with the Divine is not based on intellect.
nor is a relationship with a parent. or a relationship with a sibling. or a relationship with a partner, husband, wife, or loved one. or a relationship with a friend.
nor are any of those relationships just listed based on science.
irrelevant.
As an alternative to your lying hypothesis, Harry, I would argue that Paul brought a deeper understanding of the Torah to those who simply were not ready for it. The Kabbalah is at least two spiritual levels above the simple reading of the Torah and few there are who grasp it. Paul was apparently one who did and recognized Jesus as far more than another rabbi or worldly Messiah. The task, however, was to present it in a way that the average bear could get some handle on. That is not to say Paul had no personal failings or faults. (Obviously, I have no problem accepting his spiritual encounter with Christ.)
I have no lying hypothesis. There are a few instances where Paul does lie, and he certainly recognized Jesus as far more than another rabbi or worldly Messiah. He recognized him as god and an angel who according to OT texts had been sacrificed, and would come (not return, come) sometime in the future. Nowhere does he say Jesus was a man who had existed on earth.
I have no lying hypothesis. There are a few instances where Paul does lie, and he certainly recognized Jesus as far more than another rabbi or worldly Messiah. He recognized him as god and an angel who according to OT texts had been sacrificed, and would come (not return, come) sometime in the future. Nowhere does he say Jesus was a man who had existed on earth.
Your hypothesis to explain Paul is that he was lying. I am familiar with esoteric literature and had no idea that the Kabbalah contained parallel concepts until I encountered some of them explained in one of Richard's posts. I have since taken a more serious interest in it and it seems to me quite possible that Paul was one who had that level of spiritual understanding of the Torah. In a recent question and answer session with rosends, he relayed this insight about kabbalah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
Kabbalah in Judaism is a sort of "advanced" level of understanding the world, not a system that exists on its own. In Judaism, one studies any kabbalistic text after mastering the written text and the oral law. The texts are confusing. As a way of explaining that I'll say that in the Torah, a sentence is a sentence. In the Talmud, a phrase is a sentence and two phrases is a conversation. In the zoharic texts, a word is a paragraph. You need that kind of background and vocabulary of concepts for anything to make sense.
Much of the kabbalistic library is explanation of the bible and hidden meanings within it, so time is important but that's so, because it is foundationally important already.
That places a whole new face on the foundational early writings and the significance of their underlying inspirations, IMO.
Well, it would help if I did not have to repeatedly fend off multiple personal attacks of me, my views, or my credibility. Frankly, though, I have lost faith in the power of intellect since the diversity of knowledge is too great. God definitely seems to be an emotionally-driven issue, but not at all surprising given my own "come to God" experiences.
You make the assertion a god needs to be involved though. As such, you need to provide an evidence of such a god, as those of us who do no see that evidence, do not succumb to any supernatural beliefs.
Restating over and over your assertions do not make them a fact, they only make them a repetitive declaration.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
)
