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Which non-believers? What historical events took place where non-believers killed a bunch of people in the name of non-belief?
Keep in mind - they can't have killed a bunch of people for political reasons and just happened to be non-believers because that doesn't count.
For instance, you can't point your finger at Stalinist Russia and say millions of people were killed within a communist regime that supported atheism therefore millions of people were killed in the name of atheism. Nope. One may as well say millions of people were killed by a guy with a mustache so they were all killed in the name of mustaches.
So I am curious to know when these mass deaths took place in the name of Atheism.
I will admit that some 3,000 or so orthodox Russian priests were killed by groups of radical atheists soon after Stalin (or maybe it was Lenin) sought to rid religious influence in Russia. But that was an isolated event and did not happen on a national scale or the death toll would've been much higher.
As I said, you can't claim an atheistic regime is killing believers in the name of atheism merely because the killers are atheist.
The violence against the Uyghurs is a classic case in point. The Han Chinese and the Turkish Uyghurs both lay claim to the province of Xinjiang - so already the clash between the two have political roots. Religion has nothing to do with this. As per usual, there were atrocities and terror attacks perpetrated on both sides, ethnic tension soared to unacceptable levels - so the Chinese pretty much squashed the Uyghur and their terrorism and uprisings - taking it much too far with mass executions and internment camps. I would not classify it as a genocide, a word so over-used that it's losing its real meaning.
Granted the situation is far more complicated than I put it, but for the sake of brevity - can't have long posts and well-expressed ideas, after all, or it becomes vitriol - I condensed about 250 years of history into a paragraph.
But it has nothing whatever to do with Atheists killing in the name of Atheism. Not ... at ... all.
Nothing I've read on the subject has anything to do with worshiping a Higher Power. Sadly, it has everything to do with the usual political issues concerning who has the right of control over a piece of land. It just so happens that the lines of opposition are ethnic in nature - not even religious. It just so happens that, for Uyghars, their religion is a big part of their ethnic identity.
And that is political, not religious in nature. This kind of ultimatum is common within authoritarian regimes. Stalin did the same thing as he wanted his people obeying only one master - himself. The Chinese government is issuing a similar decree. But that still is not being done in the name of atheism. The Chinese aren't looking to turn people into atheists - that's a byproduct for what they truly want and that is their complete obedience.
And again, that is not atheists killing Christians in the name of atheism. No, that is one Godhead, the emperor, telling Christians they have to reject a different Godhead, Jesus.
Remember that Roman emperors were often considered gods on earth at that time and thus they expected the same kind of worship and adulation that an actual spiritual god should receive. And you can't get that if a percentage of your population would rather worship and adore some other guy claiming to be a god.
Sorry, but no. You're just deadbang wrong here. I don't think you quite understand the difference between killing in the name of Atheism - and killers who just happened to be atheists.
Considering the vast majority of people in America are Christians, we atheists could have a field day blaming Christianity for all the mass shootings, gang violence, violent crime, domestic violence, and all the rest of it simply by saying that, because all of these killers are Christian, then that punk who held up a convenience store and shot the cashier must have done so in the name of Christianity. You could pull nearly any street crime out of the headlines and blame it on Christianity.
But we don't say that because that's just wrong ... and if I'm honest, more than a little stupid. Trust me, i'd thump the head of any atheist who tried to make that argument. But it isn't any more valid using it in the reverse.
Remember that church shooting awhile ago - Christians sure were quick to point out the killer was an atheist (supposedly) and because he shot people at a church, by George, it was an Atheist hate crime!!
And yet ... what was it? Some argument with his mother-in-law or something? I don't remember. But it had nothing whatsoever to do with religion, that much I do remember.
So you simply cannot make the claim that killing is done "In The Name of Atheism" simply because the killer was an atheist. However, the huge number of times people have killed in the name of religion is staggering. Enitre wars have been fought purely over one religion trying to dominate over all the others.
Thanx for that post Shirina.
Please do not leave the board again.
I wrote a response to another that would also apply to this post...while you were typing it.
See above your post.
It was an analogy...illustrating how many would kill those that had beliefs that did not align with theirs.
That "differing view" can include any that do not align.
The argument was made that Atheists do not kill "In the Name of Atheism".
I noted that people can, and have, killed others because they held a Belief other than their own...that view could be Atheism.
Just as both other Religious and Atheists have killed Jews...because they were Jews and did not align with their Belief/Nonbelief.
Killers have used all kind of reasons to kill...and using ones Religious Beliefs as a reason is no better or worse a reason than any other.
Even if Religion did not exist...it would not have reduced the bodycount of history. Other reasons would have substituted, for sure...such as Greed & Quest for Power.
Kind of an interesting analogy to use an example of theists murdering other theists as a way to counter an argument that atheists do not kill in the name of atheism wouldn't you say?
You would almost have thought it would have been better to find an example of atheists murdering theists.
Oh, but, right there aren't any
I think I do know what you were trying to say. That there are all kinds of reasons to kill one and other and that religion is just an excuse at times. Trouble with that argument is there are countless examples where religion HAS in itself been the reason wars and murderous crusades have taken place
Meh, only a few people really bother with my posts anymore. I'd probably just get myself banned anyway, which is the next best thing to having my account deleted.
I just don't like leaving pieces of me behind. It was my mistake for being a little too trusting, I suppose. Trusting - and simply needing an ear, the kind I don't have anywhere in the real world.
As for my atheism - like I've said loads of times.
I think our only real point of disagreement is your hitching your spirituality to Christianity - a religion that is embarrassingly easy to show isn't true, and never was, true.
Spirituality - the possibility of higher powers - those things can be discussed openly and in a far more honest context. But when you start unpacking all the baggage brought upon by a God who is no friend of humanity - the Bible more than proves that - things go down hill fast.
In any event. Yeah. I have things going on that I honestly may not even survive. And in keeping with that honesty, I really don't even care if I survive it. Makes no difference to me. Which only makes my survival that less likely because I have no fight left. No reason to come back to this world. I don't know, maybe I just felt like howling against the world one last time.
Obviously it only matters to a couple of people. It's bad enough to be overtly dismissed as if you matter not a whit as a human being. But to go out of one's way to quote my entire post just to leave a 6 or 7 word insult is enough for me to sincerely feel hatred. And that just doesn't bother me the way it used to.
I don't feel as if I belong here any longer. I'm glad you and a few others appreciate the posts that I write. But as I've told a few others - I'm a throwback to a time on the forum when things were actually fun.
We'll see, I guess. But I've been back here a whopping 3 or 4 days and already feel a burning itch to leave it all behind again - so what does that tell you?
Alvida, Mystic.
Rather than Good Bye, I will just say, "See ya later," Shirina!
Rather than Good Bye, I will just say, "See ya later," Shirina!
And not that much later!
Look, for the record, I don't want anyone to leave the forum - I just am not going to be talked down to consistently or have my faith ridiculed or subjected to vitriol. I also am not going to read a long angry diatribe, from anyone. In fact, there aren't many people on this forum or in real life who are good enough writers for me to waste time going through a long writing of theirs.
And finally, listen, I've had the roughest year of my life, and really - a very rough six years. I've had emotional and physical blows - very serious ones. I am not making any excuses for bad behavior from myself, and I an disinclined to make excuses for anyone else. Maybe that's simply a personal issue, I don't know, but I am just not going to do it for anyone - not myself, and not anyone else.
This is no place for sarcasm and it's a major turn off to me - me personally. In fact, if anyone leaves this section of the forum, it will probably be me because more and more it seems like people in this section of the C-D forum tend to be sarcastic and angry (and often self righteous) and I DO NOT LIKE IT. It's just a personal preference to me - I'm not saying people are breaking the TOS or whatever, and I'm not reporting posts. But if someone comes at me with a wall of angry text, anyone, just know I'm not going to even bother reading it. It has nothing at all to do with intellectual ability - it has to do simply with personal preferences.
And I won't write a wall of angry text either. So there's that.
Look, for the record, I don't want anyone to leave the forum - I just am not going to be talked down to consistently or have my faith ridiculed or subjected to vitriol. I also am not going to read a long angry diatribe, from anyone. In fact, there aren't many people on this forum or in real life who are good enough writers for me to waste time going through a long writing of theirs.
And finally, listen, I've had the roughest year of my life, and really - a very rough six years. I've had emotional and physical blows - very serious ones. I am not making any excuses for bad behavior from myself, and I an disinclined to make excuses for anyone else. Maybe that's simply a personal issue, I don't know, but I am just not going to do it for anyone - not myself, and not anyone else.
This is no place for sarcasm and it's a major turn off to me - me personally. In fact, if anyone leaves this section of the forum, it will probably be me because more and more it seems like people in this section of the C-D forum tend to be sarcastic and angry (and often self righteous) and I DO NOT LIKE IT. It's just a personal preference to me - I'm not saying people are breaking the TOS or whatever, and I'm not reporting posts. But if someone comes at me with a wall of angry text, anyone, just know I'm not going to even bother reading it. It has nothing at all to do with intellectual ability - it has to do simply with personal preferences.
And I won't write a wall of angry text either. So there's that.
As best I can determine from your posts, you are NOT the kind of religious believer that Shirina tends to target. She basically calls out and exposes the truly negative (even evil) that is done using religious belief as an excuse.
You do not strike me as someone who would ever do anything like that. But the ones Shirina targets certainly deserve to be castigated for their negative impact on others. What makes them particularly heinous is wrapping their evil in the cloak of religion and piety.
Which non-believers? What historical events took place where non-believers killed a bunch of people in the name of non-belief?
Keep in mind - they can't have killed a bunch of people for political reasons and just happened to be non-believers because that doesn't count.
For instance, you can't point your finger at Stalinist Russia and say millions of people were killed within a communist regime that supported atheism therefore millions of people were killed in the name of atheism. Nope. One may as well say millions of people were killed by a guy with a mustache so they were all killed in the name of mustaches.
So I am curious to know when these mass deaths took place in the name of Atheism.
I will admit that some 3,000 or so orthodox Russian priests were killed by groups of radical atheists soon after Stalin (or maybe it was Lenin) sought to rid religious influence in Russia. But that was an isolated event and did not happen on a national scale or the death toll would've been much higher.
As I said, you can't claim an atheistic regime is killing believers in the name of atheism merely because the killers are atheist.
The violence against the Uyghurs is a classic case in point. The Han Chinese and the Turkish Uyghurs both lay claim to the province of Xinjiang - so already the clash between the two have political roots. Religion has nothing to do with this. As per usual, there were atrocities and terror attacks perpetrated on both sides, ethnic tension soared to unacceptable levels - so the Chinese pretty much squashed the Uyghur and their terrorism and uprisings - taking it much too far with mass executions and internment camps. I would not classify it as a genocide, a word so over-used that it's losing its real meaning.
Granted the situation is far more complicated than I put it, but for the sake of brevity - can't have long posts and well-expressed ideas, after all, or it becomes vitriol - I condensed about 250 years of history into a paragraph.
But it has nothing whatever to do with Atheists killing in the name of Atheism. Not ... at ... all.
Nothing I've read on the subject has anything to do with worshiping a Higher Power. Sadly, it has everything to do with the usual political issues concerning who has the right of control over a piece of land. It just so happens that the lines of opposition are ethnic in nature - not even religious. It just so happens that, for Uyghars, their religion is a big part of their ethnic identity.
And that is political, not religious in nature. This kind of ultimatum is common within authoritarian regimes. Stalin did the same thing as he wanted his people obeying only one master - himself. The Chinese government is issuing a similar decree. But that still is not being done in the name of atheism. The Chinese aren't looking to turn people into atheists - that's a byproduct for what they truly want and that is their complete obedience.
And again, that is not atheists killing Christians in the name of atheism. No, that is one Godhead, the emperor, telling Christians they have to reject a different Godhead, Jesus.
Remember that Roman emperors were often considered gods on earth at that time and thus they expected the same kind of worship and adulation that an actual spiritual god should receive. And you can't get that if a percentage of your population would rather worship and adore some other guy claiming to be a god.
Sorry, but no. You're just deadbang wrong here. I don't think you quite understand the difference between killing in the name of Atheism - and killers who just happened to be atheists.
Considering the vast majority of people in America are Christians, we atheists could have a field day blaming Christianity for all the mass shootings, gang violence, violent crime, domestic violence, and all the rest of it simply by saying that, because all of these killers are Christian, then that punk who held up a convenience store and shot the cashier must have done so in the name of Christianity. You could pull nearly any street crime out of the headlines and blame it on Christianity.
But we don't say that because that's just wrong ... and if I'm honest, more than a little stupid. Trust me, i'd thump the head of any atheist who tried to make that argument. But it isn't any more valid using it in the reverse.
Remember that church shooting awhile ago - Christians sure were quick to point out the killer was an atheist (supposedly) and because he shot people at a church, by George, it was an Atheist hate crime!!
And yet ... what was it? Some argument with his mother-in-law or something? I don't remember. But it had nothing whatsoever to do with religion, that much I do remember.
So you simply cannot make the claim that killing is done "In The Name of Atheism" simply because the killer was an atheist. However, the huge number of times people have killed in the name of religion is staggering. Enitre wars have been fought purely over one religion trying to dominate over all the others.
I was going to ask this in the post where you mentioned having pain while typing but that thread got closed. Have you ever looked into voice to text for your computer?
As best I can determine from your posts, you are NOT the kind of religious believer that Shirina tends to target. She basically calls out and exposes the truly negative (even evil) that is done using religious belief as an excuse.
You do not strike me as someone who would ever do anything like that. But the ones Shirina targets certainly deserve to be castigated for their negative impact on others. What makes them particularly heinous is wrapping their evil in the cloak of religion and piety.
As best I can determine from your posts, you are NOT the kind of religious believer that Shirina tends to target. She basically calls out and exposes the truly negative (even evil) that is done using religious belief as an excuse.
You do not strike me as someone who would ever do anything like that. But the ones Shirina targets certainly deserve to be castigated for their negative impact on others. What makes them particularly heinous is wrapping their evil in the cloak of religion and piety.
Thanks, but all I said was that I don't generally respond to vitriolic posts or walls of text, let alone both.
From any corner - ANY corner. I am not going to put up with it from anyone and I will call anyone out for it, as I have done already and not just with Shirina and not just with atheists or agnostics or Hindi or Buddhists or whatever - Christians are ESPECIALLY irritating to me when they do this, for the record. If anyone should know better, it's them. Dang. Like I've said, I've already called others on the carpet for it and they were not atheists or agnostics or whatever. I don't make excuses for anyone's bad behavior.
Kind of an interesting analogy to use an example of theists murdering other theists as a way to counter an argument that atheists do not kill in the name of atheism wouldn't you say?
You would almost have thought it would have been better to find an example of atheists murdering theists.
Oh, but, right there aren't any
I think I do know what you were trying to say. That there are all kinds of reasons to kill one and other and that religion is just an excuse at times. Trouble with that argument is there are countless examples where religion HAS in itself been the reason wars and murderous crusades have taken place
There are many Atheists that have killed Theists, of course.
The idea that they "Don't kill in the name of Atheism" in contrast to '"Some Theists kill in the name of their Religion" is a nonsensical idea.
Atheism is essentially a empty set...there is nothing to do anything "in the name of"...and that has been noted.
But that does not mean that Atheists have not killed others because those others DO (unlike them) hold a Religious Belief.
As we can see by this board...many Atheists have a BIG problem with Religion. They even have called it, "The Greatest Threat to Humankind", and say that people teaching it to their kids should be arrested & prosecuted as child abusers.
People have certainly seen it as justifiable to go to war and/or otherwise fight people that they feel are wrong to a level much less than "The Greatest Threat to Mankind".
Thanks, but all I said was that I don't generally respond to vitriolic posts or walls of text, let alone both.
From any corner - ANY corner. I am not going to put up with it from anyone and I will call anyone out for it, as I have done already and not just with Shirina and not just with atheists or agnostics or Hindi or Buddhists or whatever - Christians are ESPECIALLY irritating to me when they do this, for the record. If anyone should know better, it's them. Dang. Like I've said, I've already called others on the carpet for it and they were not atheists or agnostics or whatever. I don't make excuses for anyone's bad behavior.
Hindi is a language. Hindus practice the religion Hinduism. Just saying, no offense meant.
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