We'll Never Understand God (agnostics, suicide, Baptist, Christian)
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we are in a larger more complex system. Most rational people won't argue it.
That's why some have to start with "bad religion" when discussing belief, if we started with the notion we are in a larger more complex system, anti-all-god as a weapon to stop religion starts to look like a faith statement. It wouldn't hold up in court.
If there is one, until we understand the universe(s).
And we've barely gotten started on understanding ourselves and our little blue planet, let alone the Great Vastness and the Inner Whoknows? and how they connect - as they must surely do.
I just hope we keep the garden we were gifted as intact and poison-free as possible in order that our children's children's children have time to know and understand more than we do.
God Is Us and We are Him. We're One. All the religions have the same core, there is One God, he sat in a primal void discovering who he was for many ages, he discovered himself to be Truth. Then the big bang etc etc. He wished to give us the opportunity to learn what He did in a fraction of the time, hence, earth, life, food, water etc.
He's the reason we're not sitting in a burning or uninhabitable planet like Jupiter or floating midair in space somewhere. He loves us, gives us what we need etc. We're taught to be good, to detach from and not practice the vices, or as Nanak calls them, the theives, lust, anger, greed, envy and jealousy, ego, attachment, selfish pride. The path is simple, we make it complicated.
I'm Pantheist...I perceive The Universe (ALL Reality) as God to me.
The Universe is objectively evident and its existence self-substantiating.
The problem is your perception and arguments, not the tautology that would be true if Pantheism is false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
It's y'all that have no evidence to back your position.
So now your evidence does NOT exist? 8 billion people and an old, large universe DO objectively exist. May be you do not know this because of the limited view in your mothers cellar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
I asked for Objective Evidence for the Atheist Concept That No God Exists...and I even noted, "no "Probability, only Objective Evidence".
So...what did you do? You cry, "Pleeeeeeease Tommy Bayes, heeeeeeeelp me!!"...and you give me no evidence, just "probability" based upon the fact that you have no evidence.
What, over 8 billion people and an old, large universe do not objectively exist? Instead of your childish whines, you could try rational arguments for once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
So...what is your estimated probability that the God I perceive, "The Universe", objectively exists?
The universe exists - 100%.
That everything in it follows natural laws (naturalism) - 100%.
That it is conscious (pantheism) - so low as to be almost zero.
You need to put in the numbers that we observe, not deny everything.
More people throughout human history have been convicted on Personal Testimony & indirect/circumstantial evidence than anything else.
There are many courts in the world, even today, that will not accept anything other than Personal Testimony of a 3rd Party (some require more than one person), even for major felony crimes.
There IS evidence for God...you just won't accept it. But it's sufficient for 9 out of 10 people who have lived.
The word is illusionary. Meaning something is there its just different than we perceive it. And how we apply it. The image of a liquid surface on a hot road is a good example.
Something more is there than just that road on a sunny day.
Now we take some guesses and see what is reasonable. If we lack belief its something causing it, well that is what it is. If we are not taking any guesses, then sit down and listen. Maybe learn enough to say "Ok, maybe".
Again, just saying "we deny everything because people that say its a lake are overbearing, pushy, mean and we need to stop beliefs to help humanity." has to rely on deceit. In actual battle, Maybe, we are not there yet.
Yeah ... I can see why some people have to run from stone cold commonsense ... it usually puts a damper on my-deity-only and anti-god-because-"you"-don't-know-any-better.
The problem is your perception and arguments, not the tautology that would be true if Pantheism is false.
So now your evidence does NOT exist? 8 billion people and an old, large universe DO objectively exist. May be you do not know this because of the limited view in your mothers cellar.
What, over 8 billion people and an old, large universe do not objectively exist? Instead of your childish whines, you could try rational arguments for once.
The universe exists - 100%.
That everything in it follows natural laws (naturalism) - 100%.
That it is conscious (pantheism) - so low as to be almost zero.
You need to put in the numbers that we observe, not deny everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
And almost 100% of all people see non-existent water in a mirage. That most people believe is not evidence those many different beliefs are true.
But thank you for once again allowing me to show just how bad your arguments are.
Your argument claiming 9 out 10 people that have ever lived in the past 5000 years (including most of the greatest minds ever) are deluded...is indicative of YOUR delusion.
I've explained before...you are like the blind person that thinks all the sighted people are "making it up" that they can perceive things through vision. You think there is nothing to see...and you base that on the fact that you can't see anything. But it's YOU that lacks...not them. You need to get hip to that.
Again...as usual, you display your own flawed arguments.
Equating the veracity of details in ancient writings is not what Perceiving God is all about.
God was perceived prior to any of those writings.
You also keep making the flawed argument that God must be what YOU demand God be, to be God. This is based only on rank arrogance and hubris...not logic and reason.
You claim that Panthism declares The Universe is conscious. I challenge you to show me where that is a general claim of Pantheism. It's not.
Pantheism (ALL God) perceives The Universe as God...that's it. And that is logical and reasonable...as everything is created, done, maintained/sustained/eliminated, and controlled by The Universe. That's more than enough to merit the title "God".
The Universe certainly is compromised of all the consciousness, intellect, and knowledge that exists...and is comprised of anything & everything else.
God is known to be defined as "The Supreme Reality"...and The Universe is certainly and uniquely that.
God and/as The Universe does not need to be understood any more than that, for The Universe to be validly titled "God".
can you imagine, gld, being so locked in fear and revenge that we would toss away all commonsense. If every observation has to be passed through the filter of "How could a theist use this against atheism" before we present it.
In a way, we should feel sorry for them., they are lock in eternal conflict and torment. all fundy think types are. weather its my-deity or anti-anything-god-related.
Your argument claiming 9 out 10 people that have ever lived in the past 5000 years (including most of the greatest minds ever) are deluded...is indicative of YOUR delusion.
I've explained before...you are like the blind person that thinks all the sighted people are "making it up" that they can perceive things through vision. You think there is nothing to see...and you base that on the fact that you can't see anything. But it's YOU that lacks...not them. You need to get hip to that.
Speaking of flawed arguments. At one point in time during those 5000 years (though much more recently, in many cases), huge numbers of people (including many of those greatest minds) believed things like...
The earth is flat.
The sun revolves around the earth.
Illness is caused by an imbalance among four bodily humours.
Bloodletting is an effective treatment to rebalance those humours and cure disease.
Epilepsy is caused by demonic possession.
Eating eggs is bad for your cholesterol.
Ulcers are caused by stress and spicy food.
And on and on and on.
Gradually, the tools of science have helped us learn the truth around those widely-accepted "facts" (that really weren't). And even more gradually, the 9 out of 10 who believed those things have (mostly) let them go. Bottom line, the numbers of people who believe something is an unreliable indicator of its truthiness. Maybe you need to "get hip to that?"
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