Creation who cares (quote, beliefs, belief, exist)
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But if you take murder, for example, would I like to be murdered?
Or slavery, would I like to be someone's slave?
I have sometimes wondered why...well, never mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
It is certainly flawed. The motive behind it is not necessarily altruism. Do unto others so they would do unto you when you need help, money, dope. Do unto other so they would waive your taxes, prison term, theft. It is an act of self-protection., not a selfless act which is the only thing that has merit.
I certainly understand.
I think it's so spiffy...it's my Member name.
And I do like to see others acknowledge how great of a philosophy it is.
Agree with that post also.
Morals and morality are never absolute, change with time, so I will let that pass.
So your belief in self-value.To value oneself is not a simple place to arrive at, it is an important healthy place to be in. Is it not enough to know you are valuable in your own estimate? That I believe is subjective.
But if it is important that you should be viewed as such, and treated as such, that would make it an objective claim, right? Then Others would need to agree and they would agree only if it is externally verifiable. So how subjective or objective is that. ? It is not that clear to me.
Facts are facts, I dont really see what is objective or subjective about it either. What is a fact is however debatable, and they are debated. There are people who truly believe Trump won. That is a fact to them and they are willing to to war on that.
And there is this: What is accepted as fact at one time can change, we know that so well. Whatever we accept as facts today are only facts for now until we know better.
Your last part about different people thinking different facts are true - that is exactly why externally verified facts should carry more weight. Even then they may be wrong. That is my whole point that people should be open to the possibility that they are fooling themselves, and try to externally validate their beliefs as much as possible.
Yes, I am asking other people to value me, due to me subjectively valuing myself. So I'm trying to impose my subjectivity on others. Maybe that is fine, maybe that makes me a bad person, I'm fine either way. it is a utilitarian view, I'm not claiming a universal truth there.
So here is my position on my value for myself:
-I subjectively think I am valuable.
-I accept that objectively that I may be right or wrong. Ultimately I may not make one iota of difference. Maybe. I make no objective claim.
-Nevertheless, I want others to treat me as per my subjective view for utilitarian reasons. I still make no objective claims about truth, just that it is useful for me to ask others to treat me as if I were valuable.
It is the difference between usefulness and truth. Like I have said a few times, I have no problem with people with useful beliefs, even if they are false. It is those who claim truthful beliefs that are questionable.
Your last part about different people thinking different facts are true - that is exactly why externally verified facts should carry more weight. Even then they may be wrong. That is my whole point that people should be open to the possibility that they are fooling themselves, and try to externally validate their beliefs as much as possible.
Yes, I am asking other people to value me, due to me subjectively valuing myself. So I'm trying to impose my subjectivity on others. Maybe that is fine, maybe that makes me a bad person, I'm fine either way. it is a utilitarian view, I'm not claiming a universal truth there.
So here is my position on my value for myself:
-I subjectively think I am valuable.
-I accept that objectively that I may be right or wrong. Ultimately I may not make one iota of difference. Maybe. I make no objective claim.
-Nevertheless, I want others to treat me as per my subjective view for utilitarian reasons. I still make no objective claims about truth, just that it is useful for me to ask others to treat me as if I were valuable.
It is the difference between usefulness and truth. Like I have said a few times, I have no problem with people with useful beliefs, even if they are false. It is those who claim truthful beliefs that are questionable.
i know i am valued and valuable and treasured.
that is a fact. it is true. and i know it.
it doesn't matter to me how others view me or see me or feel about me or treat me.
that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the the fact that i am valued and treasured.
it needs no external validation whatsoever.
and it needs no external verification.
i choose not to use the words objective and subjective. my observation is that those words cloud and obfuscate, rather than clarify, whatever it is a person is seeking to express.
Actually that is not quite the right analogy. Since you are science trained, you will understand it.
The analogy works better when we are looking at the toys there but we don't know how they got there.
So we have some choices.
1-Santa's, all sorts of them. Red suits, blue suits, female, or aliens.
2-Something alive
3-something not alive
4-deny everything
5-claim we don't have to say anything.
6-add any others
Put them in a relative reliability list pete.
The Santa analogy is not mine. If you read my post, you will see I said that I don't think it is a good analogy.
And if you read my post, you would realise the point of my above post is that it doesn't matter if a belief is true or not - if it is useful and not harmful, then great. But that is a different question about whether the belief is truthful.
As for your list, I have already answered to you before. 5 is not a claim about the nature of reality, so it can't be compared for reliability, so it should not be on the list. You keep putting them on the list, that tells me a lot about you.
5 is always a valid option. People never have to make claims. Indeed I think it would be better if people made fewer claims and looked at evidence more.
i know i am valued and valuable and treasured.
that is a fact. it is true. and i know it.
it doesn't matter to me how others view me or see me or feel about me or treat me.
that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the the fact that i am valued and treasured.
it needs no external validation whatsoever.
and it needs no external verification.
i choose not to use the words objective and subjective. my observation is that those words cloud and obfuscate, rather than clarify, whatever it is a person is seeking to express.
Yes, and you may be fooling yourself. I know you are not going to consider that, but if you were fooling yourself, you would not consider it. Same for me. It may even be human nature to fool themselves into thinking they were valuable, so most people do that.
I need no external validation either for feeling I am valuable.
But I also understand that doesn't necessarily make me valuable, just because I think I am. Will my life have mattered in the grand scheme of things? I have no idea. Regardless my life matters to me and I expect others to treat me as such, even if it is a delusion. If it is a delusion, it is a useful one.
Yes, and you may be fooling yourself. I know you are not going to consider that, but if you were fooling yourself, you would not consider it. Same for me. It may even be human nature to fool themselves into thinking they were valuable, so most people do that.
I need no external validation either for feeling I am valuable.
But I also understand that doesn't necessarily make me valuable, just because I think I am. Will my life have mattered in the grand scheme of things? I have no idea. Regardless my life matters to me and I expect others to treat me as such, even if it is a delusion. If it is a delusion, it is a useful one.
you are thinking. you are feeling.
i am knowing.
not the same thing.
and here is a difference: looking for external validation, looking "out there" for verification.
instead of looking within.
a while back there was a post from cb (if i remember correctly) on that, about looking outside instead of looking within. when the true Self is recognized, it is knowing. Not thinking, not feeling, not believing. knowing.
knowing the truth of who I AM. that is the true Self.
i choose not to use the words objective and subjective. my observation is that those words cloud and obfuscate, rather than clarify, whatever it is a person is seeking to express.
Totally agree. Those terms are being misused in this context, thus thus the confusion. Subjective and objective is in the way we observe and make judgements, with or without bias, prejudgment or not, objective and subjective measure, etc. It has nothing to do with the way we express our beliefs, truths, facts etc. because they are all subjective, colored by our experience.
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