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Old 08-07-2021, 10:38 PM
 
8,192 posts, read 3,395,565 times
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Our society, in general, assumes that morality and spirituality are related, are connected. We have the ten commandments, for example. And some of Jesus' teaching recommends being good to others. It almost goes without saying in our modern society that being spiritual means trying to be a "good" person.

However, I think morality and spirituality are not really connected, and I think they are two separate things that accidentally became associated.

Both morality and spirituality are very confusing subjects, and I am not trying to explain all this in a short post. I am just starting the conversation and trying to see if anyone else here has thought about this. All I will do right now is explain something about primitive morality and spirituality, which is where it all started.

Primitive tribes always had strict and detailed moral systems, with many taboos. You could not defy these moral systems and live in a primitive tribe. What a primitive tribe considered good moral behavior was not always the same as what we think of as good moral behavior, but there was some similarity.

Primitive tribes also had their rituals and magic, which was the ancestor of what we now call religion, or spirituality.

These two things -- the primitive moral systems, and the primitive rituals/magic, were separate things. But every society had both of them. [Jump to ancient Israel, which was not primitive] In the books of the Old Testament we see a detailed moral system, and we also see detailed specifications for magic and rituals, mostly sacrifice. And there is also lots of mythology and history.

So everything in the Old Testament was assumed to be related to religion (magic and ritual, and faith in God). But NO, it is NOT. The OT includes several different things, as I described.

So, of course, Christianity conquered the Western world, and the old and new testaments became our holy literature. Morality plus religion plus history and mythology.

We need to separate these things, because they are different things. You can be religious and not a very good person, and you can be a good person and not religious (as atheists all know).

And furthermore, I would say that there is NO simple way to say what is or is not a "good" person. Jesus advised his followers to treat others well, but that was NOT his central message. His central message was how to get into heaven, and that is a SELFISH motive! If you are poor and powerless here on earth, you will be well off and powerful in heaven. Being "good" to others, not being selfish in this life, makes it possible to focus on the next world. The idea was to NOT CARE about this life.

We don't see that in primitive religions, or in Judaism for that matter. We see a focus on being well off and happy IN THIS WORLD.

Hope this makes some kind of sense. I am trying to tell you that everything you were brought up to believe on this subject is WRONG.

And yes it matters.
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Old 08-08-2021, 06:24 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,625,905 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Our society, in general, assumes that morality and spirituality are related, are connected. We have the ten commandments, for example. And some of Jesus' teaching recommends being good to others. It almost goes without saying in our modern society that being spiritual means trying to be a "good" person.

However, I think morality and spirituality are not really connected, and I think they are two separate things that accidentally became associated.

Both morality and spirituality are very confusing subjects, and I am not trying to explain all this in a short post. I am just starting the conversation and trying to see if anyone else here has thought about this. All I will do right now is explain something about primitive morality and spirituality, which is where it all started.

Primitive tribes always had strict and detailed moral systems, with many taboos. You could not defy these moral systems and live in a primitive tribe. What a primitive tribe considered good moral behavior was not always the same as what we think of as good moral behavior, but there was some similarity.

Primitive tribes also had their rituals and magic, which was the ancestor of what we now call religion, or spirituality.

These two things -- the primitive moral systems, and the primitive rituals/magic, were separate things. But every society had both of them. [Jump to ancient Israel, which was not primitive] In the books of the Old Testament we see a detailed moral system, and we also see detailed specifications for magic and rituals, mostly sacrifice. And there is also lots of mythology and history.

So everything in the Old Testament was assumed to be related to religion (magic and ritual, and faith in God). But NO, it is NOT. The OT includes several different things, as I described.

So, of course, Christianity conquered the Western world, and the old and new testaments became our holy literature. Morality plus religion plus history and mythology.

We need to separate these things, because they are different things. You can be religious and not a very good person, and you can be a good person and not religious (as atheists all know).

And furthermore, I would say that there is NO simple way to say what is or is not a "good" person. Jesus advised his followers to treat others well, but that was NOT his central message. His central message was how to get into heaven, and that is a SELFISH motive! If you are poor and powerless here on earth, you will be well off and powerful in heaven. Being "good" to others, not being selfish in this life, makes it possible to focus on the next world. The idea was to NOT CARE about this life.

We don't see that in primitive religions, or in Judaism for that matter. We see a focus on being well off and happy IN THIS WORLD.

Hope this makes some kind of sense. I am trying to tell you that everything you were brought up to believe on this subject is WRONG.

And yes it matters.

Citing things as "good" or "bad" is kind of a "sticky wicket".
Who's/what "moral compass" do we go by to determine what is to be the "objective basis" for a "moral code"?--Your's, mine, the US laws in 2021, the US laws in 1721, the Middle East in 2021, Rome in 2021, Rome 2000 yrs ago, the penal code of any random country of choosing, what Hitler thought was moral, what Gandhi thought was moral...how about Gen Custer, how about Sitting Bull, how about my/your/whoevers' Grandmother, etc, etc, etc?

Sin" or "wrongdoing", is a subjective human construct, based upon arbitrary determinations of what one or more believe to be "immoral" thoughts & actions.
Actually, there is no such thing.
FOR EXAMPLE: Many in this world think it is perfectly normal for a 50 year old man to marry a 13 year old girl...many think that is completely "immoral" and "evil".
Some think it is not cool for a woman to be viewed by strangers in anything but a burqa, with nothing but her eyes visible...others think it is fully acceptable for women to perform in pornographic movies.
Each claim the other is "wrong" to think how they do.
Even laws switch-up 180 degrees. Court rulings instantly make something that was a Class A Felony crime completely legal.
Killing innocent people is viewed as "wrong" and "evil" behavior...but slap the label "war" on it, and it is now "right" to drop bombs and wipe out everyone in an entire city. They will even award Commendations to those that did it.

Moral constructs are all arbitrary. Completely to the subjective whim of the one contemplating whatever issue as to its moral standing.
No basis is any better or worse than any other. Thus...ancient religious texts are no better, but no worse, than any other basis to use in making moral determinations.
I Submit: NOTHING...no thought or action, is "good", or "evil", or "sin"...just personal or societal preference.
So...don't worry about what you are doing. Just don't get yourself jammed up.
The Religious turn to ancient Theological texts to get the Moral Codes they adopt.
Others may use the past or current Penal Code put forth by some jurisdiction of a Country in this world to get moral instruction.
Some just use their own personal preferences and desires.
There are many things in any one of those basis I am sure I would find, not only disagreeable to me, but even henious and appalling. Especially some of the things the Legal Code allows in many Countries...I find to be the most barbaric and evil deeds that are even possible.
And that just comports with my observations of How The World Works.
I also know...it will ALWAYS be like that.
Why are we "moral"?
The Religious will say it is because we must follow the Theological moral code, from the Creator...so we can be "righteous/good".
The Secular offer their preferences, that serve them and/or society.
But neither is any better or worse than the other.
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Old 08-08-2021, 07:24 AM
 
7,583 posts, read 4,135,360 times
Reputation: 6935
Morality has to do with the preferred way of behaving. While spirituality is connected to some diety or religion most of the time, it can also be used to describe one's disposition especially one who has a lot of energy. Striving to be a moral person is what may connect the two terms.
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Old 08-08-2021, 07:43 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,518,409 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Our society, in general, assumes that morality and spirituality are related, are connected. We have the ten commandments, for example. And some of Jesus' teaching recommends being good to others. It almost goes without saying in our modern society that being spiritual means trying to be a "good" person.

However, I think morality and spirituality are not really connected, and I think they are two separate things that accidentally became associated.

Nipped for space ...

Hope this makes some kind of sense. I am trying to tell you that everything you were brought up to believe on this subject is WRONG.

And yes it matters.
Yes, I agree with the premise they are separate. Its same for free will and punishment. Some mistakenly think that because "they didn't have a choice" that means they shouldn't be accountable or removed from society. Or that because of the way they were brought up means others have to accept it as the "truth".

It is a slippery slope and we people on both sides of the argument release responsibility of making a choice by a number of means, such as "The bible said so" or "what if it was your kid." are two examples. Neither are completely wrong but nor are they completely valid either.

I disagree with you last para. Its not wrong per say. I believe people are being mislead more than they "wrong". CD is an example. Its a place where seriously scarred and recovering people meet. Those individuals have more "energy" and really impose their will on people by exploiting the insecurities that we have. Weather its "deity" or "lack belief" it amounts to the same things.

They latch onto those "dogmas" to relieve themselves of actually having to think and make a choice. Its not everybody, in fact I believe it is not even most. But its enough to mislead the herds of the "rest of us". To me anyway.
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:05 AM
 
18,916 posts, read 27,403,921 times
Reputation: 20235
I agree, morality and spirituality are not of the same origin.
Spirituality is innate, regardless of person origin. Also, true spirituality does not differentiate between good or bad, as it understands, that those are passing subjective concepts.
As you several times hinted in your OP, morality is product of society. Morality was the way of society to fit a person into society wall, as a rounded peg. Morality normally presumes benefit of society(many) over the preferences of one. Hence, as many societies, so many moralities. Islam morality is different from Christian morality and they are both different from other moralities or - lack of any morality, which is just another form or morality.
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:29 AM
 
18,911 posts, read 6,919,266 times
Reputation: 3554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Our society, in general, assumes that morality and spirituality are related, are connected. We have the ten commandments, for example. And some of Jesus' teaching recommends being good to others. It almost goes without saying in our modern society that being spiritual means trying to be a "good" person.

However, I think morality and spirituality are not really connected, and I think they are two separate things that accidentally became associated.

Both morality and spirituality are very confusing subjects, and I am not trying to explain all this in a short post. I am just starting the conversation and trying to see if anyone else here has thought about this. All I will do right now is explain something about primitive morality and spirituality, which is where it all started.

Primitive tribes always had strict and detailed moral systems, with many taboos. You could not defy these moral systems and live in a primitive tribe. What a primitive tribe considered good moral behavior was not always the same as what we think of as good moral behavior, but there was some similarity.

Primitive tribes also had their rituals and magic, which was the ancestor of what we now call religion, or spirituality.

These two things -- the primitive moral systems, and the primitive rituals/magic, were separate things. But every society had both of them. [Jump to ancient Israel, which was not primitive] In the books of the Old Testament we see a detailed moral system, and we also see detailed specifications for magic and rituals, mostly sacrifice. And there is also lots of mythology and history.

So everything in the Old Testament was assumed to be related to religion (magic and ritual, and faith in God). But NO, it is NOT. The OT includes several different things, as I described.

So, of course, Christianity conquered the Western world, and the old and new testaments became our holy literature. Morality plus religion plus history and mythology.

We need to separate these things, because they are different things. You can be religious and not a very good person, and you can be a good person and not religious (as atheists all know).

And furthermore, I would say that there is NO simple way to say what is or is not a "good" person. Jesus advised his followers to treat others well, but that was NOT his central message. His central message was how to get into heaven, and that is a SELFISH motive! If you are poor and powerless here on earth, you will be well off and powerful in heaven. Being "good" to others, not being selfish in this life, makes it possible to focus on the next world. The idea was to NOT CARE about this life.

We don't see that in primitive religions, or in Judaism for that matter. We see a focus on being well off and happy IN THIS WORLD.

Hope this makes some kind of sense. I am trying to tell you that everything you were brought up to believe on this subject is WRONG.

And yes it matters.
So anything goes? There is no such thing as morality?


And why are you guys so enamored with magic?
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Old 08-08-2021, 09:16 AM
 
9,676 posts, read 9,970,238 times
Reputation: 1919
Even satanist are spiritual but the spirit of satan would like to put people down like a sick dog, so no morality there, but through the living God of Jesus Christ has become a judgment of sin for God that all who come to Jesus, and Jesus will make a way for people to live forever with Him in Paradise, but still the satan devil don't like Jesus Christ and could make living in the earth miserable, still the devil is a defeated foe to Jesus and His followers ..... So people who follow Jesus has the hope in eternal life under God, and the people who ignore God will have lack and very little hope ........... People who follow the 10 commandment of God and ignore Jesus will not have the fulfilled hope of eternal life in Jesus, as Jesus needs people to surrender to Him and not a legal 10 commandments only......
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Old 08-08-2021, 09:52 AM
 
63,558 posts, read 39,846,061 times
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I see it somewhat differently than has been suggested here so far. Spirituality has to do with our status as a Spirit Being and morality has to do with our spiritual character. The confusion and complexity involve the interactions our Spirit has with our physical Reality, its demands, and its limitations that shape our character (morality). YMMV.
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:09 AM
 
8,192 posts, read 3,395,565 times
Reputation: 6061
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
I agree, morality and spirituality are not of the same origin.
Spirituality is innate, regardless of person origin. Also, true spirituality does not differentiate between good or bad, as it understands, that those are passing subjective concepts.
As you several times hinted in your OP, morality is product of society. Morality was the way of society to fit a person into society wall, as a rounded peg. Morality normally presumes benefit of society(many) over the preferences of one. Hence, as many societies, so many moralities. Islam morality is different from Christian morality and they are both different from other moralities or - lack of any morality, which is just another form or morality.
Morality evolved from the social systems of other mammals, it is not unique to humans. Human morality may be more complex, and it may be encoded in writing, but it's mostly the same idea -- refrain from doing things that harm the society.

Obeying your society's moral codes does NOT mean being unselfish. Wanting to fit into your society is a SELFISH and natural desire.
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:10 AM
 
8,192 posts, read 3,395,565 times
Reputation: 6061
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
So anything goes? There is no such thing as morality?
You got THAT from my post????
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