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By "observational support" do you mean "proof"? If so, I have none.
Actually, it's you that's trying to sort that out. I'm fine with just waiting to see how it all plays out.
For an atheist, I'm not sure how fine I would be if it all played out like some religious people believe it will, but I suspect the comfort for both of us to simply wait and find out comes from a level of confidence we are right to believe it will play out the way it will. Only difference, seems to me, is that you are comfortable regardless the evidence or proof that supports one belief over another while I'm something of a stickler about that sort of thing before I adopt a belief, about anything.
An interesting manner of thinking, rationalizing...
Religions are a thing of this earth, but I believe my religion to be true even beyond this earth. I believe I'm right about the Mormon religion, but I'm okay to have God correct us.
This is a nice comfortable no lose proposition, and nothing wrong with that as we're free to speculate whatever we like or want, but I think people of all religions who feel strongly about their religion all believe quite similarly about their religion. Question for me is who is right?
There certainly is no question we'll all know in the end, whether we're happy to be corrected or not.
Personally, I am quite happy and accepting to experience the same end as everyone else, and so far anyway, I've not found any good reason to believe what most religions teach about any sort of after life. All I've found is good reason to understand why so many people have come to believe what their religion teaches. Much like I understand how so many people can be taken advantage of by others. Easy to understand. Hard to accept.
Well, we may not know "in the end". The light may just go out. End of story.
That's not necessarily what I think, but it's a distinct possibility.
I wouldn't presume to guess, but it's not something I lie awake thinking about at night either.
Yeah, I suspect it will.
You are lucky Katzpur! I can't tell you how many sleepless nights I have spent thinking about the crowding issue in heaven, and how we're all going to interact given so many different kinds of people from so many different ages.
On the other hand, having the chance to meet up with some of these folks from the past and the future is something I would hate to miss.
Though you don't lie awake thinking about this sort of thing, it sure seems to me you have put far more thought into what heaven will involve along these lines then I ever have. From all who will be there, in what form, improving on our past selves. I've never put much thought into much of that, but your comments have inspired my imagination along those lines and no doubt the chance to see a dinosaur or two would be a kick too.
Which was my point, our ability to acquire knowledge and skills (our IQ) AND the ability to apply that knowledge and set of skills.
One can have the ability to acquire knowledge, our natural ability, but if one has not acquired knowledge, you can not apply it. So our ancestors from 15000 years ago may have been just as intelligent as we are, but they did not have the knowledge we have.
Which makes it difficult to argue how intelligent they actually were.
I was just making the point that intelligence and knowledge are two different things, and it seems we agree, but when you note we can't know how intelligent ancestors from 15,000 years ago may have been, it is not the knowledge then versus now that helps us to answer this question. It's the size of the brain and given equal brain size, there is no reason to think people thousands of years ago were any less intelligent than people are today. Agreed?
If you chose to skip backwards in time from brilliant individual to brilliant individual, let's consider Socrates. Socrates argued that "the gods" were inherently wise and just. Socrates also admitted that he was ignorant of much. Lack of knowledge can be a dreadful nuisance.
Socrates was also brilliant. But he was hampered by the fact that he lived in the FIFTH CENTURY BC. Space telescopes, electron microscopes and large hadron colliders were hard to come by in the fifth century bc. Just as they were in the days of Aquinas and Augustine. Which meant that huge amounts of crucial information were entirely out of their reach.
And, no, we do not know everything yet. But we are vastly more knowledgeable than those who lived in the past. As we should reasonably be.
I suspect we are best served to learn the truth of these matters by looking forward rather than backward. I don't care who you are, you would have to be pretty ignorant not to realize how much we humans have believed in the past -- with all our hearts -- that we now know was utter nonsense steeped in utter ignorance. That fact at a minimum should have us very cautious to consider teaching from a time when so much ignorance was so very common and pervasive.
God made man an independent thinker, the freedom to choose, and the freedom to think for himself.
His angels were made the same, and some chose Him and some chose dissension.
People who know nothing about productivity or quality control have no idea what value is.
In mining gold, you go through a lot of dirt to find a little gold.
In production, you go through a lot of materials to pick out what works and what does not.
Life is not a participation trophy.
What is acceptable for heaven is spared and what is not is cast away.
Mans's rebellious nature makes him flawed from birth, the influence of flawed parents furthers the rebellion.
From the beginning God sought out those that were honest and desperate to know Him, liars He has no time for.
Jesus Christ =God in the flesh, demonstrated himself God's interest in man and showing those that might have an interest in Him the potential of this relationship.
Notice that He did not argue or pursue those that only wanted to argue.
When Jesus left He provided, those under His direction, the Holy Spirit to teach in His place, which He does.
Notice that there are a lot of people that claim to be Christian, but in reality, it is in them only a label to deceive self and others, because God is not deceived. Devils believe in God but are in rebellion, and do not have a relationship.
So the bandwidth of fellowship with God is quite narrow. Jesus said it's narrow, who am I to argue with Him.
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit and forgiveness for man to rebuild this relationship, or you can face the consequences of remaining at odds with God.
When a person comes into this relationship there are advantages both temporal and eternal, all of man's wisdom cannot fathom, nor do the wicked forces of this world want you to know.
Exactly. And God didn't decide whether Adam should take a bite of the apple. What more need be said about this?
No, we're not going to return to earth when we are resurrected. We will be "new and improved" in pretty much in every way, and God has given us the potential to be like He is -- not immediately, but over time. I don't know how familiar you are with C.S. Lewis (who, of course, was not a Mormon), but his thoughts on the subject very closely mirror those of Mormonism. Here's what he said:
"The command 'Be ye perfect' is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were gods and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him, for we can prevent Him, if we choose. He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."
Nobody's going to a a Mormon. Religious denominations are a thing of this earth, not of heaven. If what I believe is true, people will find out someday that the Mormons weren't as "full of it" as they thought, and that the things we taught were correct after all. And if we're wrong, we'll be happy to have Him correct us.
I am familiar with C.S.Lewis but he disappoints me. I forget the title that I read where he was going through his journey in spirituality and came very close to non-dualism and then made an about turn and reverted back to his Catholic roots. I was in shock and disbelief. The passage you quote come close to what I mean, the mirror that reflects Brhman. It is funny he made you think of Mormonism.
If the now reembodied spirits are not coming back to earth, which is where they can continue to live their immortal life, where would they be where their bodies will be useful? the body is tailor made for conditions on earth.
Importantly, will they still be the created, and god the creator?
Well, we may not know "in the end". The light may just go out. End of story.
That's not necessarily what I think, but it's a distinct possibility.
True, and I'm of the impression the light is just going to go out. End of story. My story, and everyone else's too. I've not come across any facts, information or evidence that suggests otherwise anyway...
I agree I won't know much about anything at that point, but I also won't know all the religious versions of what happens are correct either. Coming to not knowing that is a manner of knowing, in kind of a backward way, and if you squint your eyes a little.
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