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I'm not going to compare religions or beliefs... I'm here to explain mine and for you to explain yours. I'm not here to prove anything or disprove anything. I'm here to understand the 'why' we both believe what we believe without judgement. I feel you might be unable to do that... am I wrong?
What part of Christianity is plausible to you? Clearly you do not believe in the resurrection. The plausible part of atheism I get from Albert Einstein and his philosophy. For instance... "The important thing is to never stop questioning. Curiosity has it's own reason for existing. One can not help but be in awe when we contemplate the mysteries of eternity, of life and the marvelous structures of reality. It IS enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. "
Personal/individual accounts can be accurate, embellished, false, partly true or outright fiction. How we process that information is the 'why' or the 'how come' of belief. Knowledge, upbringing and personal experiences play a major role in how we assimilate belief... and the line from presumption to faith is as dynamic as we are individuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn
I'm not going to compare religions or beliefs... I'm here to explain mine and for you to explain yours. I'm not here to prove anything or disprove anything. I'm here to understand the 'why' we both believe what we believe without judgement. I feel you might be unable to do that... am I wrong?
I have contemplated the material, reached my conclusions, and I am ready and willing to state how and why I have reached the conclusions that I have reached. And to do so in detail. That's the best explanation that I can offer you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn
What part of Christianity is plausible to you?
The parts that are plausible. The portions of the story that do not involve the supernatural contravening of common experience and common observation are plausible and could be true. Even the crucifixion could be true. Muhammad says that Jesus was NOT crucified. But Muhammad lived centuries after Jesus. Muhammad's claim to authority comes from his claim that an angel talked to him. Joseph Smith would make the same claim centuries later still.
See how this stuff works?
The crucifixion of non Roman citizens by the Romans is a matter of recorded history. So the crucifixion of Jesus is historically plausible. However whether or not Jesus even existed historically, or whether the entire story is a tall tale from beginning to end is the subject of debate.
There is no historical record of ANY OF THE EVENTS DETAILED IN THE GOSPELS dating to the time that the Gospels indicate that Jesus lived and died. According to the time frame established by the Gospels Jesus died circa 30 AD. The earliest mention of Jesus, historically, occur in the letters written by Paul in the 50's AD. But Paul himself did not know Jesus, and was not present to witness ANY of the events detailed in the Gospels. During the time Jesus was supposed to have been alive he provoked no mention whatsoever.
Personally I find the abrupt rise of the story of the crucified carpenter to be more explainable if it is based on some measure of actual fact. Actual fact does not include a corpse returning to life and flying off up into the sky, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn
The plausible part of atheism I get from Albert Einstein and his philosophy. For instance... "The important thing is to never stop questioning. Curiosity has it's own reason for existing. One can not help but be in awe when we contemplate the mysteries of eternity, of life and the marvelous structures of reality. It IS enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. "
Einstein also had this to say:
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions." -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind. http://deadstate.org/think-einstein-...wrote-in-1954/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn
Personal/individual accounts can be accurate, embellished, false, partly true or outright fiction. How we process that information is the 'why' or the 'how come' of belief. Knowledge, upbringing and personal experiences play a major role in how we assimilate belief... and the line from presumption to faith is as dynamic as we are individuals.
Indeed. How we judge the accuracy of personal accounts depends largely upon their plausibility, which is to say, how they correspond to all common experience, common observation, and therefore all common sense.
Is this a theory or is there a proof? Either way it affirms what the metaphysical philosophy aspect of every religion have already proclaimed as God, Brhman, Oneness, Cosmic Consciousness and this assertion exists in all Ancient texts.
How they are interpreted and understood are dependent on individual capability, life experience, impulses and other factors which may or may not be under their control.
Frankly there is no dichotomy or animus between science and religion. Many scientists (90% among Indians Scientists) are religious or believe in a greater existence. Nobody rejects science, but many believe Science does not have and may never have all the answers. Even the true scientists say that. The enmity only exists in the minds of atheists.
Does your cell phone work as advertised? Does your computer work as advertised? These contrivances, and various other contrivances, operate by understanding and utilizing the processes of quantum mechanics. So you "prove" the truth of the science that enables this sort of technology every time you use use it.
Does your cell phone work as advertised? Does your computer work as advertised? These contrivances, and various other contrivances, operate by understanding and utilizing the processes of quantum mechanics. So you "prove" the truth of the science that enables this sort of technology every time you use use it.
They may have parts of it wrong. A lot of parts actually. But the simple fact is believing in some thing more just makes more sense. Using exactly what you just said.
I have contemplated the material, reached my conclusions, and I am ready and willing to state how and why I have reached the conclusions that I have reached. And to do so in detail. That's the best explanation that I can offer you.
The parts that are plausible. The portions of the story that do not involve the supernatural contravening of common experience and common observation are plausible and could be true. Even the crucifixion could be true. Muhammad says that Jesus was NOT crucified. But Muhammad lived centuries after Jesus. Muhammad's claim to authority comes from his claim that an angel talked to him. Joseph Smith would make the same claim centuries later still.
See how this stuff works?
The crucifixion of non Roman citizens by the Romans is a matter of recorded history. So the crucifixion of Jesus is historically plausible. However whether or not Jesus even existed historically, or whether the entire story is a tall tale from beginning to end is the subject of debate.
There is no historical record of ANY OF THE EVENTS DETAILED IN THE GOSPELS dating to the time that the Gospels indicate that Jesus lived and died. According to the time frame established by the Gospels Jesus died circa 30 AD. The earliest mention of Jesus, historically, occur in the letters written by Paul in the 50's AD. But Paul himself did not know Jesus, and was not present to witness ANY of the events detailed in the Gospels. During the time Jesus was supposed to have been alive he provoked no mention whatsoever.
Personally I find the abrupt rise of the story of the crucified carpenter to be more explainable if it is based on some measure of actual fact. Actual fact does not include a corpse returning to life and flying off up into the sky, however.
Einstein also had this to say:
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions." -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind. http://deadstate.org/think-einstein-...wrote-in-1954/
Indeed. How we judge the accuracy of personal accounts depends largely upon their plausibility, which is to say, how they correspond to all common experience, common observation, and therefore all common sense.
Thank you for that response. Tonight is beach night with the gang and copious amounts of wine.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions." -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind. http://deadstate.org/think-einstein-...wrote-in-1954/
That was reference to Seinfeld, an American TV comedy. It makes a lot of sense.
It may make a lot of sense to people who have watched Seinfeld. Not everyone has, and such a phrase may have been edited out here in Germany for obvious reasons.
You do have a strange inability to thinks outside of your own ego.
Yesterday I happened to hear a discussion about one of the bills in Congress and how some politicians were saying something along the lines of 'just wait, the progress you seek will eventually happen', and the person being interviewed said something along the lines of 'that's what you told my great, great grandparent's generation. That's what you told my grandparent's generation, that's what you told my parent's generation, that's what you are telling my generation, and that's what you will tell my children's generation".
"A child dies from hunger every 10 seconds. Poor nutrition and hunger is responsible for the death of 3.1 million children a year. That’s nearly half of all deaths in children under the age of 5. The children die because their bodies lack basic nutrients."
How many more generations are going to die this way before you admit your promise is a falsehood?
You've lost me. What promise are you talking about.
And I don't get your quotes and nutrition and hunger other than basic starving-child stats for dramatic effect. Yeah, no kidding, It's greatly reduced since the 1950s, but no one claimed it is gone. However, the possibility exists that it will be, and it will happen, in part, because people looked for solutions. Some of those solutions included asking for spiritual guidance and opening their minds to the answers to those prayers.
I get it. You want a Merlin-The-Magician God that snaps its fingers and makes bad things go away. Lots of people do. That's just not realistic, and to get angry when such a god doesn't exist seems pointless.
You've lost me. What promise are you talking about.
And I don't get your quotes and nutrition and hunger other than basic starving-child stats for dramatic effect. Yeah, no kidding, It's greatly reduced since the 1950s, but no one claimed it is gone. However, the possibility exists that it will be, and it will happen, in part, because people looked for solutions. Some of those solutions included asking for spiritual guidance and opening their minds to the answers to those prayers.
I get it. You want a Merlin-The-Magician God that snaps its fingers and makes bad things go away. Lots of people do. That's just not realistic, and to get angry when such a god doesn't exist seems pointless.
You've lost me. What promise are you talking about.
And I don't get your quotes and nutrition and hunger other than basic starving-child stats for dramatic effect. Yeah, no kidding, It's greatly reduced since the 1950s, but no one claimed it is gone. However, the possibility exists that it will be, and it will happen, in part, because people looked for solutions. Some of those solutions included asking for spiritual guidance and opening their minds to the answers to those prayers.
I get it. You want a Merlin-The-Magician God that snaps its fingers and makes bad things go away. Lots of people do. That's just not realistic, and to get angry when such a god doesn't exist seems pointless.
First of all, I'm making an analogy here. I talked about a gentleman who was talking about civil rights and was pointing out that people always say 'wait, your time will come", but it never seems to come. And he was asking how many generations have to pass before 'that time' finally comes? And he was talking about a time period of 16 generations. I am asking a similar question of christians who believe in prayer. According to the United Nations, 25,000 die EACH DAY from starvation, and yet I have been hearing these christian starvation prayers for 64 years. Let's see, just since I began hearing these christian prayers, 1,600,000 have died of starvation. In fact, just since I got up this morning, an hour ago, according to one estimate, 360 children have died of starvation. If all this praying works...why are all these people -- all god's children -- dying of starvation (not to even mention other things christians pray about -- wars, genocide, etc.
Dramatic effect? A child dying every 10 seconds is for dramatic effect? That seems like an awfully cynical viewpoint, especially from you.
But no, many of the christian prayers about starvation that I heard didn't ask for "spiritual guidance and opening their minds tot he answers to those prayers"; they asked for god to step in and end the dying.
"Merlin-The-Magician God that snaps its fingers and makes bad things go away"? Actually, as depicted in the holy book of the Old Testament, it seemed as if god pretty much snapped his fingers and made things happen...often bad things. You know...things like water being turned to blood so the fish in the river died and the Egyptians couldn’t drink the foul water; frogs swarmed forth covering every inch of land and entering houses and bedrooms; lice all over Egypt with bugs covering the land; hoards of wild animals
destroying everything in their path; a fatal pestilence killing most of the domestic animals of the Egyptians; boils developing on the Pharaoh, his servants, the Egyptians and even their animals; hail striking down all the crops in the fields and shattering every tree; locusts covering the face of the land and swallowing up every crop and all the fruits of the trees, darkness over Egypt so total that the Egyptians had to feel their way around, and the ever-popular death of all the firstborn Egyptian sons (and firstborn cattle). You mean that "Merlin-The-Magician-God"? And by the way, aren't all children god's children? Or did some other god over in the next country create the Egyptians? Or the Syrian, Yemenis, Nigerian, South Sudanese
If that god could do all those things, why can't he stop babies from suffering and dying from starvation? Too busy? Maybe watching Lil Nas videos? Gone bowling? On vacation in the Riviera?
Philippians 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
Mark 11:24 you have received it, and it will be yours.
John 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
I could go on. But why is it not realistic? Isn't god all-knowing and all-powerful. If he's not an awfully lot of christians have got it all wrong.
First of all, I'm making an analogy here. I talked about a gentleman who was talking about civil rights and was pointing out that people always say 'wait, your time will come", but it never seems to come. And he was asking how many generations have to pass before 'that time' finally comes? And he was talking about a time period of 16 generations. I am asking a similar question of christians who believe in prayer. According to the United Nations, 25,000 die EACH DAY from starvation, and yet I have been hearing these christian starvation prayers for 64 years. Let's see, just since I began hearing these christian prayers, 1,600,000 have died of starvation. In fact, just since I got up this morning, an hour ago, according to one estimate, 360 children have died of starvation. If all this praying works...why are all these people -- all god's children -- dying of starvation (not to even mention other things christians pray about -- wars, genocide, etc.
Dramatic effect? A child dying every 10 seconds is for dramatic effect? That seems like an awfully cynical viewpoint, especially from you.
But no, many of the christian prayers about starvation that I heard didn't ask for "spiritual guidance and opening their minds tot he answers to those prayers"; they asked for god to step in and end the dying.
"Merlin-The-Magician God that snaps its fingers and makes bad things go away"? Actually, as depicted in the holy book of the Old Testament, it seemed as if god pretty much snapped his fingers and made things happen...often bad things. You know...things like water being turned to blood so the fish in the river died and the Egyptians couldn’t drink the foul water; frogs swarmed forth covering every inch of land and entering houses and bedrooms; lice all over Egypt with bugs covering the land; hoards of wild animals
destroying everything in their path; a fatal pestilence killing most of the domestic animals of the Egyptians; boils developing on the Pharaoh, his servants, the Egyptians and even their animals; hail striking down all the crops in the fields and shattering every tree; locusts covering the face of the land and swallowing up every crop and all the fruits of the trees, darkness over Egypt so total that the Egyptians had to feel their way around, and the ever-popular death of all the firstborn Egyptian sons (and firstborn cattle). You mean that "Merlin-The-Magician-God"? And by the way, aren't all children god's children? Or did some other god over in the next country create the Egyptians? Or the Syrian, Yemenis, Nigerian, South Sudanese
If that god could do all those things, why can't he stop babies from suffering and dying from starvation? Too busy? Maybe watching Lil Nas videos? Gone bowling? On vacation in the Riviera?
Philippians 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
Mark 11:24 you have received it, and it will be yours.
John 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
I could go on. But why is it not realistic? Isn't god all-knowing and all-powerful. If he's not an awfully lot of christians have got it all wrong.
Sane and rational people have long ago realized that our ancient ancestors got it wrong about God because they attributed absolutely everything that happened to either God's Will or God's wrath. Get over it, Phet. They were wrong. That does not mean God does not exist. It just means that God does not operate the way our ancestors thought. Are there too many people today who still misunderstand God's role? Absolutely! So what?
It is a miracle that the belief in God has survived this long lending support to my assertion that God resides with us in our consciousness as the Comforter. The Comforter does not mean a "magician, or Genie, or wish-granter." We are to "overcome and endure" the vicissitudes of this life. Guess what the role of the Comforter is????
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