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Old 01-12-2023, 08:20 PM
 
21,874 posts, read 19,025,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
I was correcting a misrepresentation about Daoism, based on my research into Daoism, and based on what I have learnt from a Chinese Daoist. Tzap took offense at the fact there really are people faking their alleged superior religious knowledge, and simply dismissed my post as irrational; and then you joined in with a misrepresentation of what I was doing instead of addressing my post directly. I was not the aggressor, as you can see if you follow the conversation back using those arrows in the comments. You can keep on pretending otherwise, but all you are doing is showing that too many of the 'spiritual' here are neither self aware, honest, or humble. As to Germany's high percentage of Marxist belief, I do not believe I know any German Marxists. And I chalk the aggressive attitude of the select group of spiritual people here to the fact we know they are faking it.No, I take exception to bad arguments.
my observation is that you consistently and regularly on an ongoing basis attribute your own words ideas thoughts imaginings misrepresentations and assumptions to others. Reasonable rational people have no trouble at all discussing ideas and further clarifying their views with each other in an online forum such as this. Without the hair-trigger knee-jerk ever-present hostility and aggression which preclude, well, rational conversation.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-12-2023 at 08:52 PM..
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Old 01-12-2023, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,720,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post
English brain. What is that?

Language facilitates thinking. Do you realize that you can only think through language? If you have not been taught any language, you cannot think. It's not possible. The voice going on in your head is in English, if that is what you use in daily life.


A dog doesn't sit around all day thinking about its existence. It just can't.
sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Yes, it is confusing. Ancient Chinese thought is inaccessible in the English language, yet they tried to explain ancient Chinese thought using an English translation.
laughed
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Old 01-12-2023, 08:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
so then what is your own understanding of the 10,000 things. And what is your own understanding of the Tao, and how it differs from the 10,000 things.
The question above is for anyone. With regards to the topic of this thread "Science as a Religion" and tying that into the discussion and framework of Taoism: Science only addresses the 10,000 things because science only deals with the material plane of existence. It is limited in the scope of what it addresses in that regard. Taoism however encompasses a greater scope. Because it also addresses the Tao which precedes and is the source of the 10,000 things.
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Old 01-12-2023, 09:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Ironic considering you are a self appointed arbiter of all things spiritual, even though you were wrong about a first cause cosmic consciousness in Daoism. I am not the arbiter of what a "genuine Daoist" would or would not do, actual Daoists are. I learn from them. Perhaps because I have studied this, and not every Daoist accepts the existence of Chi as a mystical life force (a simplistic western view), but see it as energy, an application of energy, natural forces, or as an ancient, but outdated approximation of how our bodies function. Throughout the history of China from before the emperor Chin, the concept of Chi has been defined differently, perhaps if you studied this instead of relying on Google searches? Yet you argue with someone who actually studies Daosim, it's principles and history?
if ever there was (to use the phrase from post above) a "simplistic western view" it is the simplistic view that qi does not exist. another "simplistic western view" is that the wisdom in ancient sacred texts is "an outdated approximation."

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-12-2023 at 09:30 PM..
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Old 01-12-2023, 09:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Interesting! May I ask why this attitude is not sufficient when applied to this one?? It is irrelevant if Christ existed or not, the early Christians existed, and it is to their texts and ideas I am referring Just curious!
good question, good example, good observation

that is an example which demonstrates an absence of rational thinking when a double standard is present and in use. Another example in this thread of a double standard in use, is acknowledging that there are different interpretations in Taoism; while at the same time dismissing out of hand the views put forth by for instance a Taoist practitioner with a Masters of Science in Oriental Medicine, and published works on Taoism for Beginners: Understanding and Applying Taoist History, Concepts, and Practices, and Physics, Philosophy & Nondual Spiritual Inquiry, and Physics & Western Philosophy and Tao-Buddha, and Nonduality In Various Flavors

it is not rational to apply a double standard.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-12-2023 at 09:49 PM..
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Old 01-12-2023, 09:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
The text says the three create the 10000 things, not scientism. You were wrong, and now you are trying to evade that. It is irrelevant if Confucius existed or not, the early Confucianists existed, and it is to their texts and ideas I am referring, hence the use of the term 'classical'.
so then what is "the three"? what does that refer to.
What is your understanding of what that means "the three create the ten thousand things."

this is relevant to the thread topic science as a religion.

The Tao gives birth to the One.
The One gives birth to the Two.
The Two give birth to the Three.
The Three give birth
to the ten thousand things.
---from the Tao Te Ching

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-12-2023 at 10:04 PM..
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Old 01-12-2023, 10:33 PM
 
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And with regards to thread topic of "Science as Religion," Chapter 40 of the Tao Te Ching directly addresses the origins of well everything. How the non-physical gives rise to the physical. How the non-physical is back of everything physical. How nothingness is the source of everything. Since the Tao Te Ching is widely published and there are lots and lots of different translations, here is a sampling of different translations of the same section from chapter 40:


Everything comes from existence;
Existence comes from nothingness.
------
Heaven and earth and the ten thousand things come from existence,
but existence comes from non-existence.
------
All things in the world are born out of being.
Being is born out of non-being.
------
The all things in the world come from the visible,
which comes from the invisible
------
Universe and All Things were given birth by Existence.
Existence was given birth by Unknown-Existence
------
The myriad things under Heaven achieve life in existence.
Existence arises from nothingness
------
天下萬物生於有.
有生於無.
------
For though all creatures under heaven are the products of Being,
Being itself is the product of Not-being
------
Myriad things and creatures on Earth were originated from something;
This something describable by us was launched ultimately from nothing which is beyond our description

---different translations of same section, from chapter 40 Tao Te Ching
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Old 01-12-2023, 11:49 PM
 
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Can science create something out of nothing?
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Old 01-13-2023, 01:37 AM
 
21,874 posts, read 19,025,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
I was thinking about this part of the post as I took Mr Yap for his walk, not because the use of 'scientism' is a sign of a false 'teacher' who simply dismisses what they do not like, but also because it is a typical example of those pretending to be spiritual and wise because they have a superficial knowledge because they have casually read a book.The first thing to understand is the misrepresentation and misuse of the Daoist concept of the ten thousand things.The second is that genuine Daoists would laugh at the above, because one of the core ideas of Daoism is to question your beliefs and experiences, as the story of Zhuang Zhou who dreamed he was a butterfly* shows. Rational inquiry is a major part of Daoism, which is why things like Daoist medicine is used, because it has been tested and proven to work. * or was he a butterfly who dreamed he was a man?
reading the post above reminds me of this

One who seeks knowledge learns something new every day.
One who seeks the Tao unlearns something new every day.

---from Chapter 48, Tao Te Ching


and reading the post above generates the question: so which do you focus on more, which do you consider of greater value and importance in your life: learning or unlearning. are you one who seeks knowledge or are you one who seeks the Tao. are you a follower of knowledge or you a follower of the Tao. do you seek to fill your mind or empty your mind.


The follower of knowledge learns as much as he can every day;
The follower of the Way forgets as much as he can every day.

The more we learn, the more things are plowed into our minds;
The more we follow the Tao, the more things are taken out of our minds.

---also from Chapter 48, Tao Te Ching
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Old 01-13-2023, 05:18 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,587 posts, read 4,870,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Interesting! May I ask why this attitude is not sufficient when applied to this one?? It is irrelevant if Christ existed or not, the early Christians existed, and it is to their texts and ideas I am referring Just curious!
Why are you asking me about something irrelevant to me or my arguments?

A clue, when I am talking about the the early Christians, their texts and ideas, it is irrelevant if Christ existed or not, the early Christians existed, and it is to their texts and ideas I am referring.


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