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According to the Abrahamic religions, their god has predetermined the outcome of the world, including each situation that a person may encouter.
As such, why pray for something? God already has determined what will happen (you will find your keys, your child will died, you won't win a million dollars), so why the pleading for your god to change the outcome of something?
It won't do any good.
Now, if some answer that they praise their god that way, I might accept that, but one usually hears prayers being asked for that are to change an outcome.
I've always been intrigued by the prayer thing. Perhaps someone has a good answer that makes sense from their perspective of their religion. I have not heard one yet, but am open to learning.
Where does it say that God has pre-determined the outcome of the world?
That's like asking "why take pain meds for chronic back pain?" Prayer helps individuals manage their pain and struggles.
The meds actually do something that can be replicated in others and understood. Prayer? Not so much. Realistically, what is the difference of outcome of either talking to oneself and prayer?
Mystics definition has been created by him simply to debate atheists, and that is what I am responding to . Atheists though typically are debating the normal theistic God who meets my definition. So in terms of the discussions here , I believe mine meets a minimum standard that theists would agree to , and that this is what the discussions between theists and atheists are about . Not some version that has none of these attributes .
I suppose that there is any number of possible non omniscient, non omnipotent, mortal, and created gods out there . People can make up any god they wish . There would still be no evidence for them , which is the point . But that isn’t what gets discussed around here . Now that you bring this up, I don’t recall ever seeing atheists in the pagan area debating pagans . I wonder why? I suppose because pagans don’t proselytize or try to force their beliefs on society .
Anyone that is posting to this forum is necessarily online.
This also makes readily available to them the expert provided definitions and meanings of the word/title "G-O-D".
Those that look into this information...will gain greater knowledge and understanding on the matter...and potentially clear up any confusion or lack of knowledge they have about it.
You have decided our Reality is NOT God based on a lack of sufficient evidence to satisfy what YOU think a God must be to qualify as God. I have decided our Reality is God on the basis of personal experiences of a consciousness that subsumes ours and everything else and because it is responsible for our existence. The fact that it DOES exist, it does have other attributes that could define God, and it has been personally experienced to be conscious, I see my position as superior to yours. You disagree.
Let’s keep this discussion in context. It’s never been about undoing anyone’s personal beliefs. You have created a meaningless definition of God purely to debate atheists . Atheists who were and are debating theists of primarily Christian and Islamic faith . You don’t even accept it yourself, it’s just a debate tactic . You try to insert this meaningless God because the atheists tick you off for some reason . My point is that everyone is discussing a God that would be a real type God to almost all theists, with my minimum attributes . Your God that is nothing but the Earth and an unconscious collection of rocks, methane gas, and interstellar dust, is pointless in these discussions . You haven’t proven god in any way, you have simply redefined god down to a meaningless being with no actual godlike attributes
That is very similar to what we say when we encounter proselytizers, particularly those who tell us about how we are going to hell for not believing in their god.
Well, that wouldn't be me so I am not sure why you directed that at me but OK.
You seem pretty torqued, I might add. Why is that? I mean, why is it REALLY?
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 11-11-2021 at 05:37 AM..
Let’s keep this discussion in context. It’s never been about undoing anyone’s personal beliefs. You have created a meaningless definition of God purely to debate atheists . Atheists who were and are debating theists of primarily Christian and Islamic faith . You don’t even accept it yourself, it’s just a debate tactic . You try to insert this meaningless God because the atheists tick you off for some reason . My point is that everyone is discussing a God that would be a real type God to almost all theists, with my minimum attributes . Your God that is nothing but the Earth and an unconscious collection of rocks, methane gas, and interstellar dust, is pointless in these discussions . You haven’t proven god in any way, you have simply redefined god down to a meaningless being with no actual godlike attributes
It's not meaningless to Mystic. Mystic believes in a panentheist type of god.
I'm always very puzzled as to why pantheism and panentheism are somehow not viewed as legitimate beliefs on this forum.
I don't know why they are any less legitimate than anything else anyone believes.
I don't really think Mystic has invented what he believes just to tick off atheists. I think he really believes what he believes.
As an atheist I view all religions equally and I don't see pantheism as any different to Christianity in terms of - that's just how some people view the world.
Many people believe in a pantheist or panentheist type of god. And there are many posters on this forum that believe in a god outside the Christian and Islamic faiths these days. There's a whole Pagan subforum for one thing plus infinite other combinations of belief.
I can see that you already started this with Mystic but you would have to agree with them what their defined God-like attributes were, rather than what you define them to be, then you can ask them that question.
Edit: might make for an interesting thread in of itself: ask people how they define god-like attributes?
This line of discussion has to be understood in context. Mystic has proclaimed to atheists he has proven god exists, because he defines god as simply the universe .At least for debate purposes. He believes in more than this with regards to his own personal god, so he doesn't even apply his definition to himself. He then proceeds to claim that atheists are willfully lying, because he has proven god exists. So my list of attributes must be understood as a response to all of this from Mystic. Most people define god as more than 2 minimum bare bones attributes, and it is against this fuller definition of god that atheists debate. Mystic simply wants to force everyone to agree with his definition. I am merely pointing out that his definition is a meaninglessness and irrelevant sort of god, and one that even Mystic does not limit himself to, although he demands atheists do so when debating god, because if god is merely the physical universe then we know that exists, so atheists have been disproven. This is Mystics only purpose, to craft a definition that atheists can't deny, regardless of how meaninglessness this nothing type of god is.
It's not meaningless to Mystic. Mystic believes in a panentheist type of god.
I'm always very puzzled as to why pantheism and panentheism are somehow not viewed as legitimate beliefs on this forum.
I don't know why they are any less legitimate than anything else anyone believes.
I don't really think Mystic has invented what he believes just to tick off atheists. I think he really believes what he believes.
As an atheist I view all religions equally and I don't see pantheism as any different to Christianity in terms of - that's just how some people view the world.
Many people believe in a pantheist or panentheist type of god. And there are many posters on this forum that believe in a god outside the Christian and Islamic faiths these days.
You are confusing two different things that Mystic has claimed over the years, his personal beliefs and his debate version. They are different . The version he and I have been debating is meaningless to him. He doesn't limit himself to it. Panentheism sees a god beyond the mere physical world, usually possessing the minimum attributes I gave. Hinduism is panentheistic . So is Eastern Orthodoxy. Mystic envisions a conscious god that he meets in meditation, and that apparently saw men as sinful, and because of this sent Christ to save men. But the god Mystic proclaims in debates with atheists is merely one that has created us , even if by evolution , and provided for us. Thats it. No consciousness, no immortality, nothing else . And thats it because if he adds more than this he knows he cannot claim the universe as god and claim to have proven god to atheists.
Do not confuse Mystics beliefs with this debate. They are not the same thing. This debate is about Mystic trying to insist god only needs two attributes to be god, having created us and providing resources for us to live by. And its sole purpose is as a debate tactic with atheists.
That is very similar to what we say when we encounter proselytizers, particularly those who tell us about how we are going to hell for not believing in their god.
Many Atheists on this board claim (even relate personal accounts of it) they encounter Religious that tell them they are going to burn in hell...but, meanwhile, I have rarely, if ever, seen the Religious on this board actually do that.
HMMMMMMM...something strange about that.
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