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Think of Catholic confession. The person confessing is supposedly forgiven for his sins after he chooses to go to confession. As a result, his mental health should be improved. It's not the priest who is giving the forgiveness that is feeling better.
Yeah the Catholic confession is interesting. It is mental health support for the perpetrator (who also should have mental health support, I agree). But it has nothing to do with the victim, so how can the forgiveness be real?
Mr A commits a crime against Mr B. Mr A ask and receives forgiveness from Mr C (the priest). But it is Mr B who is the person in the position from which they can forgive, Mr C has nothing to do with it.
It is guilt cleansing of the perpetrator, without addressing harm to the victim.
Mr A: "Father I raped someone today."
Priest: "Say the act of contrition"
Mr A: "O my God, because you are so good, I am very sorry that I have sinned against you; and I promise that with the help of your grace, I will not sin again. Amen."
Priest: "You are forgiven"
Mr A feels better, wonderful.
Next day
Mr A: "Father I murdered someone today."
Priest: "Say the act of contrition"
Mr A: "O my God, because you are so good, I am very sorry that I have sinned against you; and I promise that with the help of your grace, I will not sin again. Amen."
Priest: "You are forgiven"
Mr A feels better, wonderful.
Next day
Mr A: "Father I murdered someone else today."
Priest: "Say the act of contrition"
Mr A: "O my God, because you are so good, I am very sorry that I have sinned against you; and I promise that with the help of your grace, I will not sin again. Amen."
Priest: "You are forgiven"
Mr A feels better, wonderful.
What I learned about the whole forgiving oneself is that it is meant for a person to forgive themself for becoming a victim of somebody else's intent to harm. The whole point is to start learning to trust your instincts, start saying "no" more often, start asking better questions, and be okay if somebody else has the upper hand at the moment. In other words, maintain boundaries and don't apologize for it. Or in other cases, let it go. Forget it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
I am not sure i understand the last paragraph, the underlines. You mean treating those who hurt you differently? That did not occur to me.
About the “forgiven†forgetting, it depends on the relationship, i think. If someone I am fond of, or is important like a co-worker or boss, hurt me there are two things here. I too may want our relationship back to normal because it was good for me. So forgiving in this case would need to be acknowledged. If the person does not care as much as i do, or has died, what do I do with the pain?
This is why it is immaterial how the other behaves after the forgiving. It’s a transaction you do for your self, with yourself. There is no need for another party to validate it in any way. You may or may not continue with the same kind of trust you had before, but you can still be neutral, not be affected emotionally any longer.
Yes.
Most of the time, people don't see it as "you haven't forgiven me, Elyn". Instead, they see it as "you haven't forgotten, Elyn." To be fair, I don't think people are trying to hurt me most of the time (99.99%). That doesn't mean there won't be conflict. The difference is the approach to conflict resolution. That is why the feeling is more along the lines that I haven't forgotten rather than I haven't forgiven. The change is that there is more accountability (being sure) and so the relationship becomes more "work". But once we get over this bump, things run smoother than they did before because we can now anticipate each other's needs better. An example would be, knowing better what a boss wants and the boss now understanding the barriers employees face. It has worked every time for me. On the other hand, some people don't like accountability and so we become more distant.
If I thought somebody was trying to hurt me, my number one go-to is "Is there some goal you are trying to accomplish by saying that? Am I supposed to feel something?" I rarely ask these questions though. For the most part, if I think somebody wants me to feel hurt, chances are they are hurting inside so I save those questions for the people who don't seem to care.
Yeah the Catholic confession is interesting. It is mental health support for the perpetrator (who also should have mental health support, I agree). But it has nothing to do with the victim, so how can the forgiveness be real?
Mr A commits a crime against Mr B. Mr A ask and receives forgiveness from Mr C (the priest). But it is Mr B who is the person in the position from which they can forgive, Mr C has nothing to do with it.
It is guilt cleansing of the perpetrator, without addressing harm to the victim.
Mr A: "Father I raped someone today."
Priest: "Say the act of contrition"
Mr A: "O my God, because you are so good, I am very sorry that I have sinned against you; and I promise that with the help of your grace, I will not sin again. Amen."
Priest: "You are forgiven"
Mr A feels better, wonderful.
Next day
Mr A: "Father I murdered someone today."
Priest: "Say the act of contrition"
Mr A: "O my God, because you are so good, I am very sorry that I have sinned against you; and I promise that with the help of your grace, I will not sin again. Amen."
Priest: "You are forgiven"
Mr A feels better, wonderful.
Next day
Mr A: "Father I murdered someone else today."
Priest: "Say the act of contrition"
Mr A: "O my God, because you are so good, I am very sorry that I have sinned against you; and I promise that with the help of your grace, I will not sin again. Amen."
Priest: "You are forgiven"
Mr A feels better, wonderful.
Never mind the victims.
How lucky are Catholic criminals!
That's not how it works, unless the Priest is completely incompetent and grossly negligent.
What I learned about the whole forgiving oneself is that it is meant for a person to forgive themself for becoming a victim of somebody else's intent to harm.
Yes.
If I thought somebody was trying to hurt me, my number one go-to is "Is there some goal you are trying to accomplish by saying that? Am I supposed to feel something?" I rarely ask these questions though. For the most part, if I think somebody wants me to feel hurt, chances are they are hurting inside so I save those questions for the people who don't seem to care.
The last sentence, my bolding is not working for some reason.. Yes, absolutely. When the hurt caused is so incomprehensible, it helps to see the abuser as someone in pain and damaged as well. Because none of us are perfect, we too hurt others knowingly and unknowingly. But anyone with a healthy self-image will recognize and apologize, make amends. If they cannot, then we still can heal ourselves, and that is by letting go of the hurt.
That's not how it works, unless the Priest is completely incompetent and grossly negligent.
It is sort of how it works.
I know people who went to confession nearly every week for drinking, did their hail marys and our fathers, and assumed they were now okay. The priest knew who they were. There was no other intervention. Just the routine and meaningless recitation of protocol, followed by breaking the rules once again.
Maybe it would have been more accurate for you to say that's not how it's supposed to work.
I know people who went to confession nearly every week for drinking, did their hail marys and our fathers, and assumed they were now okay. The priest knew who they were. There was no other intervention. Just the routine and meaningless recitation of protocol, followed by breaking the rules once again.
Maybe it would have been more accurate for you to say that's not how it's supposed to work.
Perhaps you missed the second part of my post (see bolded):
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
That's not how it works, unless the Priest is completely incompetent and grossly negligent.
Even so, isn't that a bit judgy of you? I wouldn't presume to judge the state of an alcoholic's soul or whether they are truly contrite or not. Addiction is very powerful.
Perhaps you missed the second part of my post (see bolded):
Even so, isn't that a bit judgy of you? I wouldn't presume to judge the state of an alcoholic's soul or whether they are truly contrite or not. Addiction is very powerful.
I've moved around a bit, and it's not just one priest.
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