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Old 11-23-2021, 06:38 AM
 
299 posts, read 102,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
#1 goes.

The Bible never presents God as loving every human being that ever lived . . . .
Yes, it does. I have no wish to get into a scripture-citing contest with you, but you're mistaken.

The God of my understanding is greater than the greatest being I can conceive. The God of your understanding seems somewhat less, insofar as he fails to extend his love to all he created.
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Old 11-23-2021, 06:38 AM
 
884 posts, read 353,412 times
Reputation: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey View Post
I strongly disagree if someone says you can't bring reason to religion. I think you have to, so as to avoid believing in self-contradictory nonsense.

The question "can God make a rock . . . ?" is irrational and absurd. Omnipotent beings, logically, cannot be conceived as having the ability to out-omnipotize themselves. Nor can they make square circles. Their inability to break logic is no challenge to their omnipotence.

Did you know; the Bible says that Christ is the very embodiment of Logos - the rational principle?
The absurdity with the stone paradox, is reason to question the concept of omnipotent beings.

Omnipotent beings can't be fully omnipotent due to a paradox, hence there cannot be omnipotent beings.

You can resolve the paradox by putting limits on their omnipotence, but then they are not fully omnipotent beings. They are omnipotent being with an asterisk, or second order omnipotent beings if you prefer that term.
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Old 11-23-2021, 06:39 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,599 posts, read 4,887,620 times
Reputation: 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey View Post
It doesn't matter whether you believe in salvation, just entertain it as a hypothetical for discussion. In the context of the question, I mean saved from eternal damnation in hell. I don't believe in eternal damnation, but I'm entertaining it here hypothetically.
Thank you, and reading your opening post again, I see you already mentioned eternal torture.

For me, the most logical would be all powerful, because that leads to paradoxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey View Post
Please give me a clue about the intent of your question. How is it germane?
If you are asking a hypothetical question, it is not really germane. If it is not hypothetical, then you are asking people as if they know the mind of their god. For me, that would be like asking an ant about how people think.

I would argue the best one can do is look at the universe around us and, presuming a god exists, ask what are the most probable attributes of this god. Is it loving, is it all powerful, does it care about us, does it know about us. I found your two options limited.
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Old 11-23-2021, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,289 posts, read 23,893,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Read my last post again. God created all of us. We inherit sin from Adam. We are all bad. But God, in his mercy, chooses to save some, and predestines them for salvation. Not based on who we are or what we've done, but on his choice.

There is not a shred of self-righteousness here. Nothing I've done or am qualifies me to be chosen. I did absolutely NOTHING to be saved. God did everything.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Either you didn't want to answer the question, or you don't understand what it means when someone is a father.
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Old 11-23-2021, 06:45 AM
 
18,857 posts, read 6,877,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey View Post
Yes, it does. I have no wish to get into a scripture-citing contest with you, but you're mistaken.

The God of my understanding is greater than the greatest being I can conceive. The God of your understanding seems somewhat less, insofar as he fails to extend his love to all he created.
Surely one verse would not be too much to ask? Or perhaps the God of your understanding is not reality?
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Old 11-23-2021, 06:47 AM
 
18,857 posts, read 6,877,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Either you didn't want to answer the question, or you don't understand what it means when someone is a father.
This is why I don't usually respond to you. I've been thorough in my explanation, then you come back with this garbage.

What does being a father have to do with this?
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Old 11-23-2021, 06:52 AM
 
299 posts, read 102,840 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter600 View Post
The absurdity with the stone paradox, is reason to question the concept of omnipotent beings.

Omnipotent beings can't be fully omnipotent due to a paradox, hence there cannot be omnipotent beings.

You can resolve the paradox by putting limits on their omnipotence, but then they are not fully omnipotent beings. They are omnipotent being with an asterisk, or second order omnipotent beings if you prefer that term.

Second-order omnipotence! I'm going to remember that one next time I argue this. Thanks!


I don't think you fully appreciate my point. There is no absurdity per se in saying that the omnipotent being exists. The absurdity is in asking the omnipotent one to not be omnipotent (he can't pick it up). It is a nonsense question that casts no light on the possibility or nature of omnipotence.
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Old 11-23-2021, 06:55 AM
 
299 posts, read 102,840 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Surely one verse would not be too much to ask? Or perhaps the God of your understanding is not reality?
Not taking the bait, BF. They've been quoted to you in these fora repeatedly.
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Old 11-23-2021, 07:20 AM
 
18,857 posts, read 6,877,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey View Post
Not taking the bait, BF. They've been quoted to you in these fora repeatedly.
lol...sure. ok. Then I guess you're not really interested in understanding
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Old 11-23-2021, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Alabama
13,458 posts, read 7,742,466 times
Reputation: 7013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey View Post
It is a mystery to me why people say that the suffering of the wicked is good.
Really? That's a mystery to you? I don't know what to say to that, except that your sense of justice is very strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey View Post
I understand that punishment may be a tool for reforming the evildoer or for protecting potential victims - - but payback for the sake of payback? I don't get it. Please explain.
Divine justice is not "payback for the sake of payback". It's a restoration of order to the cosmos. It's God's Honor being vindicated.

If a man owes a debt, it is right and just that he repay that debt. In the case of a grave sin against God, that is a debt that can never be repaid, so the punishment is eternal.
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