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Old 12-01-2021, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,486 posts, read 6,095,376 times
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I read through Kastrups essay again.
I'm sorry I just don't have time to comment on every aspect of it.

Just a couple of notes:
I disagree with his statement that living beings have been 'perceiving' the world for three and a half billion years. Single celled organisms may respond to stimuli, but that's not the same thing as perception to me. Do plants have perception, self awareness? I will leave you to judge.

I found his comparison of a photo of the cosmos with neurons in a mouses brain as representational of anything, too silly.

I did get a couple of useful things from it:
I followed up on one of Kastrups references in which a Prof Donald Hoffmann attempts to show how our perceptions are nothing like reality and that evolution has shaped our perceptions in order to benefit our survival:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-e...lity-20160421/

I found this much clearer set out than Kastrups, whose philosophy seems to either be largely based on Hoffmans work or is at least largely aligned with it.
Hoffman uses this analogy which is quite nice:

Quote:
Suppose there’s a blue rectangular icon on the lower right corner of your computer’s desktop — does that mean that the file itself is blue and rectangular and lives in the lower right corner of your computer? Of course not. But those are the only things that can be asserted about anything on the desktop — it has color, position and shape. Those are the only categories available to you, and yet none of them are true about the file itself or anything in the computer. They couldn’t possibly be true. That’s an interesting thing. You could not form a true description of the innards of the computer if your entire view of reality was confined to the desktop. And yet the desktop is useful. That blue rectangular icon guides my behavior, and it hides a complex reality that I don’t need to know. That’s the key idea.
In terms of Kastrup I looked him up and came across this video of him and Deepak Chopra. I'm not usually a big fan of Chopra. He is known to steal scientific terms like 'quantum' and use them as metaphors instead of their scientific definitions, but here I found myself agreeing with a lot of what was said and I enjoyed listening to the conversation between him and Kastrup. Kastrup is certainly a lot better speaker than he is a writer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClLNFrtxteQ


Kastrups philosophy seems to be centered on this:

"All matter is the extrinsic appearance of mental processes when observed from a certain disassociated perspective."

I disagree. Matter is matter however or regardless of whether we perceive it. (I'm assuming he is basing this on wave-particle duality. I think it's a mistake to base a philosophy on that). Matter would be matter if humans didn't exist.

I do agree with the idea that Kastrup and Chopra were trying to get across: that in materialism nothing exists except matter and that this mindset can be dismissive of exploring any other avenues. I think we should remain objective.

Sorry I don't have any more time to devote to this. It's very thought provoking but I just have a million other things to do.

Last edited by Cruithne; 12-01-2021 at 02:26 PM..
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Old 12-01-2021, 01:33 PM
 
63,359 posts, read 39,631,847 times
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Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Do not fear LearnMe. It is already under the bus and for good reason. Even Science does not require the total devotion and worship you display. Science is based on curiosity, inquiry, and confirmation, not blind faith on either the subject nor the PhD's. Particularly beware the PhD's, the deities of Science. They will do and say anything for the money. As proven by this Mother Load of a "contest."
Excuse me, but most people are susceptible to monetary motivation. However, I am no deity let alone one of Science, but PhDs do tend to provide an objective perspective based on tangible evidence of the known Reality as best we can discover it. From that standpoint, I believe it is superior to the esoteric literature which is entirely based on subjective experience and analytic speculation.
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Old 12-01-2021, 02:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Excuse me, but most people are susceptible to monetary motivation. However, I am no deity let alone one of Science, but PhDs do tend to provide an objective perspective based on tangible evidence of the known Reality as best we can discover it. From that standpoint, I believe it is superior to the esoteric literature which is entirely based on subjective experience and analytic speculation.
I have deep respect for PhDs and the hours of work they put in in their labs and research. I am married to one, an aerospace guy like Bigelow. And I have several among friends and family in various fields.
personally I just do not need affirmation of my esoteric practice from science. it is always interesting when scientific research catches up with ancient philosophy.
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Old 12-01-2021, 02:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I have deep respect for PhDs and the hours of work they put in in their labs and research. I am married to one, an aerospace guy like Bigelow. And I have several among friends and family in various fields.
personally I just do not need affirmation of my esoteric practice from science. it is always interesting when scientific research catches up with ancient philosophy.
It is definitely doing that, CB!
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Generally following Buddhist belief can lead to a reduction of suffering and a more moral life. Those two goals alone seem rather noble to me.

If reincarnation/rebirth is/are true, then that brings about a higher level of fulfillment of Buddhist teachings. A total end to suffering, as well as the knowledge that our life goes on into the future.

You may continue to drill down, if you wish. It's a good thing to do.
I completely agree that reduction of suffering and a moral life are two goals very much worth pursuing. Maybe even noble. Two goals among many I would throw into that group of worthiness.

Interesting, don't you think? As many times as you and others have explained one doesn't need religion to pursue such goals, here you seem to feel Buddhism is the ticket for you along these lines. Maybe you don't need Buddhism to pursue these goals, but Buddhism just helps you work toward achieving them? No different than others can say about their religion I suppose.

"Not that there is anything wrong with that."

Problem for me along these lines is all that religion "brings to the party" beyond just the help along these lines, so I simply pursue these goals because they are worthy. I don't give any religion credit for them or think any religion helps me strive toward achieving them.

Again, "whatever works" as I like to say, and needless to say what works for some people just doesn't for others...
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:51 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,498,691 times
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Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I have deep respect for PhDs and the hours of work they put in in their labs and research. I am married to one, an aerospace guy like Bigelow. And I have several among friends and family in various fields.
personally I just do not need affirmation of my esoteric practice from science. it is always interesting when scientific research catches up with ancient philosophy.
Forgive me because I have to believe this question has been asked and answered before in this forum, but I can't remember, and I'd like to know...

Can you or Mystic come up with some examples of how scientific research has caught up with ancient philosophy? I'd like to better understand what you are referring to here more specifically. Thanks!
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,122 posts, read 23,785,288 times
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Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I completely agree that reduction of suffering and a moral life are two goals very much worth pursuing. Maybe even noble. Two goals among many I would throw into that group of worthiness.

Interesting, don't you think? As many times as you and others have explained one doesn't need religion to pursue such goals, here you seem to feel Buddhism is the ticket for you along these lines. Maybe you don't need Buddhism to pursue these goals, but Buddhism just helps you work toward achieving them? No different than others can say about their religion I suppose.

"Not that there is anything wrong with that."

Problem for me along these lines is all that religion "brings to the party" beyond just the help along these lines, so I simply pursue these goals because they are worthy. I don't give any religion credit for them or think any religion helps me strive toward achieving them.

Again, "whatever works" as I like to say, and needless to say what works for some people just doesn't for others...
There's a long-standing debate in the Buddhist world (although perhaps especially with Western Buddhists) about whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy. I think it's a valid question.

But let's look at some differences between 'my' Buddhism (remember, to an extent it is an individual path) and how some christians look at their religion:

The 5 Buddhist Precepts are...suggestions on how to reduce suffering. If you don't follow them, you may suffer more in everyday life.
The 10 Commandments are...well...commands, and if you don't do them you will be punished by god.

If you don't accept Buddha as your personal savior...you go on with your life.
If you don't accept Christ as your personal savior...you go to hell. You do not pass Go. You do not collect $200.

If you reject sections of the Tipitaka...you go on with your life.
If you reject books of the bible...you will go to hell.

There's a huge difference between using scriptures as A book of wisdom versus as THE source of wisdom.
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Old 12-02-2021, 02:16 PM
 
15,792 posts, read 6,856,651 times
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Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Forgive me because I have to believe this question has been asked and answered before in this forum, but I can't remember, and I'd like to know...

Can you or Mystic come up with some examples of how scientific research has caught up with ancient philosophy? I'd like to better understand what you are referring to here more specifically. Thanks!
Meditation practices that have become almost commonly understood as having healthy and energizing effects on the brain, to blood circulation, calmling anxieties and addiction, improved performance for athletes and students, healing pain. I thought this was common knowledge. May be you were not aware that their roots lie in yogic breathing and meditation practices.
Many studies on how the mind works, about delusions and illusions, are derived from Vedic texts even if not credited or recognized. These studies parellel what is already in these texts dealing with inquiry into the body and mind and connections.
The effect of different food and herbs are from ancient yogic practices now seen in the frenzy of marketing of turmeric, ginger, garlic and ghee as part of a healthy diet. There is more to come.
That is just a sample. Anticipating your further comments I decline to discuss this further. You may do your own research.
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Old 12-02-2021, 03:23 PM
 
63,359 posts, read 39,631,847 times
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Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Meditation practices that have become almost commonly understood as having healthy and energizing effects on the brain, to blood circulation, calmling anxieties and addiction, improved performance for athletes and students, healing pain. I thought this was common knowledge. May be you were not aware that their roots lie in yogic breathing and meditation practices.
Many studies on how the mind works, about delusions and illusions, are derived from Vedic texts even if not credited or recognized. These studies parellel what is already in these texts dealing with inquiry into the body and mind and connections.
The effect of different food and herbs are from ancient yogic practices now seen in the frenzy of marketing of turmeric, ginger, garlic and ghee as part of a healthy diet. There is more to come.
That is just a sample. Anticipating your further comments I decline to discuss this further. You may do your own research.
His kind of responses to your posts definitely do NOT encourage further interaction, that's for sure.His antipathy to anything he considers "woo" is beyond the pale. I amuse myself imagining his reaction after his earthly demise.
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Old 12-02-2021, 03:42 PM
 
15,792 posts, read 6,856,651 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
His kind of responses to your posts definitely do NOT encourage further interaction, that's for sure.His antipathy to anything he considers "woo" is beyond the pale. I amuse myself imagining his reaction after his earthly demise.
must be the concrete effect. or confirmation bias. incapacity in thinking outside of what one already knows he knows. lack of curiosity.

Last edited by cb2008; 12-02-2021 at 04:05 PM..
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