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Old 01-18-2022, 10:02 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,742,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I'm not sure I quite understand your objection. Are you suggesting that there are other means of communicating and describing direct experiences that are devoid of language, culture, and knowledge? Psychic perhaps??? I agree that other direct experiences that differ from mine exist.
When someone explains they have had an experience that is devoid of language, culture and knowledge, psychic perhaps, they are doing exactly what you are saying can't be done. To describe what you and others have always wanted to describe in oh so many ways that others have not or can't experience. So it can be done. Whether everyone should accept these explanations for what they claim to be remains the question. Whether anyone wants to additionally claim the experience was "one with God" or not. That too another question that remains...
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Old 01-18-2022, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,874 posts, read 24,384,032 times
Reputation: 32990
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
When someone explains they have had an experience that is devoid of language, culture and knowledge, psychic perhaps, they are doing exactly what you are saying can't be done. To describe what you and others have always wanted to describe in oh so many ways that others have not or can't experience. So it can be done. Whether everyone should accept these explanations for what they claim to be remains the question. Whether anyone wants to additionally claim the experience was "one with God" or not. That too another question that remains...
While I was reading this post, an incident in my past popped into my head.

I was in Thailand one summer and I said to one of my close Thai friends (well educated, btw) that I wanted him to take me to the Thonburi side of the river, not by car or bus, but by boat, and do a little exploring of some of the klongs (canals) over there. So, off we went. And one of the stops that we made was at a Buddhist temple right along one of the klongs, apparently quite a famous one...at least to Thais. And we went inside and got into the proper position, and 'watched' an abbot meditating for almost 30 minutes. I was amazed. I couldn't see the abbot move, even breathe, no facial ticks, nothing. Thais would come in and sit down as we had and just watch for quite a long time. Finally we went out, and I told my friend how amazed I was that the meditating abbot was so totally still. My friend laughed and said, "That's a wax statue". Out of curiosity, I asked several Thai people who were standing around the temple if it was real or a statue, and some gave one answer, others the opposite.

This is a little bit like religion, in general. It's okay that some are christian. It's okay that some are Hindu. It's okay that some are Buddhist. It's okay that some are atheist.

What has been popping up in my thoughts the past few days is the need to differentiate between the "good" (or the "bad") in various religions from a personal standpoint versus a societal standpoint.

I don't suggest to anyone that become Buddhist. Because I can look at Burma and see what Buddhists have done to the Rohingya (while also seeing what some Rohingya have done). I can look at southern Thailand and see what Buddhists have done to Muslims in southern Thailand (while also seeing what some Muslims have done).

cb keeps preaching (literally) advaita. Then I look at the country where advaita is most influential and I think to myself 'what a mess'.

Others here preach how wonderful a society the US is because of christianity, and there is so much tragic, disgusting history here in what they see as a "christian nation".

Same with the Middle East.

More and more I come to the conclusion that religion is not something to base a culture or country on.

However, individuals may benefit a great deal from christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Islam, or atheism. Valid principles within a religion do not necessarily make the whole religion good. Some bad teachings within a religion do not necessarily make the whole religion bad. I guess I'm sort of saying what a Thai monk said to me once when I said that I didn't believe in something in Buddhism (don't remember what it was since the conversation was 30 years ago). His answer was that it was okay not to believe everything within Buddhism. Don't toss the particular teaching away, just set it aside. Maybe someday you'll come back to it and look differently at it...or not.

I look at what Mystic preaches here EVERY DAY, ad nauseum. I think it's a crock. But if it works for Mystic, fine. If advaita works for cb. Fine. At this point, I'm not interested. And that's fine, too. If someone asks me about Buddhism, I'll answer their questions as best I can...but I won't go seeking them out...that's their journey to make.

No one has to prove anything is this forum. Unless they want to convince others to accept their belief, that is. I don't ask anyone to believe my past lives story. Don't ask me (or demand) that I believe Islam, or advaita, or pantehism, or christianity. It's my journey, just as 'your' journey belongs to 'you'.
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Old 01-18-2022, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Rural America
269 posts, read 329,795 times
Reputation: 1382
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
How can there NOT be other universes?
Betcha can't have just one, huh? Seriously, I see no reason for there to be other universes. The Multiverse is a fairly new idea, and it is somewhat appealing since it provides an answer to the fine-tuning problem and the Strong Anthropic Principle. But how would it ever be supported by observation? Vilenkin's "Eternal Inflation" multiverse does claim the possibility of supporting observations, but they're pretty far out. Fields medalist Shing Tung Yau's resolution of the Calabi conjecture was picked up by string theorists who interpreted the Calabi-Yau manifolds as the appropriate configuration spaces for superstrings. Since it appears there are an infinity of such manifolds, this was taken as one indication of an infinite number of universes. (Yau, a mathematician, did not make such a claim.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Then there is obviously what existed before the beginning of our known observable universe.
We simply do not know whether or not anything existed before the beginning of our universe. How would we know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
All indications seem to suggest that all existence has no beginning or end. Accordingly, is it not necessary to recognize what was there before this one known observable universe that's been around only about 14 billion years? What about all time before that?
I know of no indication to suggest that all existence has no beginning or end. As I said, we don't know about "the beginning." We have a pretty good idea, though, about the end. Our Universe is cooling. It's been observed that about 5 billion years ago, the overall star-formation rate began steadily decreasing to the rate we see today. Star formation will continue to decline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Then too there is the outer limit of our observable universe. What is on the outside of that limit?
Current thinking is that there is no "edge." One analogy is, look at the surface of a spherical balloon that is getting blown up and expanding. No edge.
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,535 posts, read 6,174,816 times
Reputation: 6575
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
While I was reading this post, an incident in my past popped into my head.

I was in Thailand one summer and I said to one of my close Thai friends (well educated, btw) that I wanted him to take me to the Thonburi side of the river, not by car or bus, but by boat, and do a little exploring of some of the klongs (canals) over there. So, off we went. And one of the stops that we made was at a Buddhist temple right along one of the klongs, apparently quite a famous one...at least to Thais. And we went inside and got into the proper position, and 'watched' an abbot meditating for almost 30 minutes. I was amazed. I couldn't see the abbot move, even breathe, no facial ticks, nothing. Thais would come in and sit down as we had and just watch for quite a long time. Finally we went out, and I told my friend how amazed I was that the meditating abbot was so totally still. My friend laughed and said, "That's a wax statue". Out of curiosity, I asked several Thai people who were standing around the temple if it was real or a statue, and some gave one answer, others the opposite.

This is a little bit like religion, in general. It's okay that some are christian. It's okay that some are Hindu. It's okay that some are Buddhist. It's okay that some are atheist.

What has been popping up in my thoughts the past few days is the need to differentiate between the "good" (or the "bad") in various religions from a personal standpoint versus a societal standpoint.

I don't suggest to anyone that become Buddhist. Because I can look at Burma and see what Buddhists have done to the Rohingya (while also seeing what some Rohingya have done). I can look at southern Thailand and see what Buddhists have done to Muslims in southern Thailand (while also seeing what some Muslims have done).

cb keeps preaching (literally) advaita. Then I look at the country where advaita is most influential and I think to myself 'what a mess'.

Others here preach how wonderful a society the US is because of christianity, and there is so much tragic, disgusting history here in what they see as a "christian nation".

Same with the Middle East.

More and more I come to the conclusion that religion is not something to base a culture or country on.

However, individuals may benefit a great deal from christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Islam, or atheism. Valid principles within a religion do not necessarily make the whole religion good. Some bad teachings within a religion do not necessarily make the whole religion bad. I guess I'm sort of saying what a Thai monk said to me once when I said that I didn't believe in something in Buddhism (don't remember what it was since the conversation was 30 years ago). His answer was that it was okay not to believe everything within Buddhism. Don't toss the particular teaching away, just set it aside. Maybe someday you'll come back to it and look differently at it...or not.

I look at what Mystic preaches here EVERY DAY, ad nauseum. I think it's a crock. But if it works for Mystic, fine. If advaita works for cb. Fine. At this point, I'm not interested. And that's fine, too. If someone asks me about Buddhism, I'll answer their questions as best I can...but I won't go seeking them out...that's their journey to make.

No one has to prove anything is this forum. Unless they want to convince others to accept their belief, that is. I don't ask anyone to believe my past lives story. Don't ask me (or demand) that I believe Islam, or advaita, or pantehism, or christianity. It's my journey, just as 'your' journey belongs to 'you'.
Very good post Phet!
As I always say, if you can cherry pick the good bits out of the bible from the bad bits, you never needed the bible in the first place. And I suppose the same goes with all religions. You just go with the parts that resonate and discard the rest.
And I agree, whatever works for people, great!
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,874 posts, read 24,384,032 times
Reputation: 32990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Very good post Phet!
As I always say, if you can cherry pick the good bits out of the bible from the bad bits, you never needed the bible in the first place. And I suppose the same goes with all religions. You just go with the parts that resonate and discard the rest.
And I agree, whatever works for people, great!
Thank you, Cruithne!
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:03 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,742,721 times
Reputation: 3473
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
While I was reading this post, an incident in my past popped into my head.

I was in Thailand one summer and I said to one of my close Thai friends (well educated, btw) that I wanted him to take me to the Thonburi side of the river, not by car or bus, but by boat, and do a little exploring of some of the klongs (canals) over there. So, off we went. And one of the stops that we made was at a Buddhist temple right along one of the klongs, apparently quite a famous one...at least to Thais. And we went inside and got into the proper position, and 'watched' an abbot meditating for almost 30 minutes. I was amazed. I couldn't see the abbot move, even breathe, no facial ticks, nothing. Thais would come in and sit down as we had and just watch for quite a long time. Finally we went out, and I told my friend how amazed I was that the meditating abbot was so totally still. My friend laughed and said, "That's a wax statue". Out of curiosity, I asked several Thai people who were standing around the temple if it was real or a statue, and some gave one answer, others the opposite.

This is a little bit like religion, in general. It's okay that some are christian. It's okay that some are Hindu. It's okay that some are Buddhist. It's okay that some are atheist.

What has been popping up in my thoughts the past few days is the need to differentiate between the "good" (or the "bad") in various religions from a personal standpoint versus a societal standpoint.

I don't suggest to anyone that become Buddhist. Because I can look at Burma and see what Buddhists have done to the Rohingya (while also seeing what some Rohingya have done). I can look at southern Thailand and see what Buddhists have done to Muslims in southern Thailand (while also seeing what some Muslims have done).

cb keeps preaching (literally) advaita. Then I look at the country where advaita is most influential and I think to myself 'what a mess'.

Others here preach how wonderful a society the US is because of christianity, and there is so much tragic, disgusting history here in what they see as a "christian nation".

Same with the Middle East.

More and more I come to the conclusion that religion is not something to base a culture or country on.

However, individuals may benefit a great deal from christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Islam, or atheism. Valid principles within a religion do not necessarily make the whole religion good. Some bad teachings within a religion do not necessarily make the whole religion bad. I guess I'm sort of saying what a Thai monk said to me once when I said that I didn't believe in something in Buddhism (don't remember what it was since the conversation was 30 years ago). His answer was that it was okay not to believe everything within Buddhism. Don't toss the particular teaching away, just set it aside. Maybe someday you'll come back to it and look differently at it...or not.

I look at what Mystic preaches here EVERY DAY, ad nauseum. I think it's a crock. But if it works for Mystic, fine. If advaita works for cb. Fine. At this point, I'm not interested. And that's fine, too. If someone asks me about Buddhism, I'll answer their questions as best I can...but I won't go seeking them out...that's their journey to make.

No one has to prove anything is this forum. Unless they want to convince others to accept their belief, that is. I don't ask anyone to believe my past lives story. Don't ask me (or demand) that I believe Islam, or advaita, or pantehism, or christianity. It's my journey, just as 'your' journey belongs to 'you'.
So was it a wax statue or not?

Funny story. Thanks! Also funny that even here we have a case of separating the truth from the rest. How we can be impressed by what we think is the truth, but really it is not. Otherwise, I'm also struck with the premise we do anything along these lines through the lens of any religion. Why start there? Of course I know this is an R&S forum and maybe that's why. Here, but what about just generally speaking?

Why not an appropriate Q&A even in this forum for that matter?

Last edited by LearnMe; 01-19-2022 at 09:23 AM..
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,874 posts, read 24,384,032 times
Reputation: 32990
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
So was it a wax statue or not?

Funny story, but also funny that even here we have a case of separating the truth from the rest. How we can be impressed by what we think is the truth, but really it is not. Otherwise, I'm also struck with the premise we do anything along these lines through the lens of any religion. Why start there? Of course I know this is an R&S forum and maybe that's why. Here, but what about just generally speaking?

Why not an appropriate Q&A even in this forum for that matter?
It was much, much later that in some somewhat obscure guide book I finally found that temple listed...and it was...a statue.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:16 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,742,721 times
Reputation: 3473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heron31 View Post
Betcha can't have just one, huh? Seriously, I see no reason for there to be other universes. The Multiverse is a fairly new idea, and it is somewhat appealing since it provides an answer to the fine-tuning problem and the Strong Anthropic Principle. But how would it ever be supported by observation? Vilenkin's "Eternal Inflation" multiverse does claim the possibility of supporting observations, but they're pretty far out. Fields medalist Shing Tung Yau's resolution of the Calabi conjecture was picked up by string theorists who interpreted the Calabi-Yau manifolds as the appropriate configuration spaces for superstrings. Since it appears there are an infinity of such manifolds, this was taken as one indication of an infinite number of universes. (Yau, a mathematician, did not make such a claim.)

We simply do not know whether or not anything existed before the beginning of our universe. How would we know?

I know of no indication to suggest that all existence has no beginning or end. As I said, we don't know about "the beginning." We have a pretty good idea, though, about the end. Our Universe is cooling. It's been observed that about 5 billion years ago, the overall star-formation rate began steadily decreasing to the rate we see today. Star formation will continue to decline.

Current thinking is that there is no "edge." One analogy is, look at the surface of a spherical balloon that is getting blown up and expanding. No edge.
You see no reason?

I appreciate your reply here, but what I'm asking really doesn't have to do with whether you see a reason or not. I'm not sure I can pin my question or the answer on whether we can observe or know these answers, but I am curious what logic or reason can explain how all that has ever existed can have a beginning or end. Again, I don't know how to reason there was nothing there where the observable universe began. How to reason there was nothing there before the observable universe began.

No indication all existence has no beginning or end? Again I'm not sure about indication. I know of no such indication either, but I'm not able to rationalize any scenario that involves other than no beginning or end. Almost by definition, a beginning means something happening somewhere. What is that somewhere in which the beginning occurs? All seems to suggest the only answer is an infinite space with no beginning or end, or questions like mine should have answers.

I don't think "current thinking" is that an expanding balloon has no edge either. At every stage of expansion it has an edge, and there is a point in which the balloon can't expand any further. There's an edge there too, and always at whatever stage there is what is outside the edge. Outside the balloon. In the case of our expanding universe, again my question is with respect to that space outside the edge. What else other than infinite space makes the most sense here too?
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:21 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,742,721 times
Reputation: 3473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Very good post Phet!
As I always say, if you can cherry pick the good bits out of the bible from the bad bits, you never needed the bible in the first place. And I suppose the same goes with all religions. You just go with the parts that resonate and discard the rest.
And I agree, whatever works for people, great!
I agree too, and this is why I always note there is really nothing gained by shaking one's faith. "Whatever works" as I often also say, but I also must note that my focus when it comes to the truth of these matters doesn't really have to do with what works in those more personal well being sorts of ways.

As I also always make a point of noting, the truth is not a function of what works or doesn't for us on a personal level. So I guess we're back to distinguishing the focus here. Is it about what works for us personally? What helps us get through the day? Or is it about the truth of these matters regardless how it suits us?
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,535 posts, read 6,174,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I agree too, and this is why I always note there is really nothing gained by shaking one's faith. "Whatever works" as I often also say, but I also must note that my focus when it comes to the truth of these matters doesn't really have to do with what works in those more personal well being sorts of ways.

As I also always make a point of noting, the truth is not a function of what works or doesn't for us on a personal level. So I guess we're back to distinguishing the focus here. Is it about what works for us personally? What helps us get through the day? Or is it about the truth of these matters regardless how it suits us?
The truth is the truth regardless whether we believe it or not, yes
But the truth is irrelevant to believers, since there is a placebo effect going on.
What matters is what they believe the truth is, that enhances their lives, not the actual truth.
And, who knows what the truth is anyway, for the most part?
(I probably should have written this on your other thread about the truth.)


Quote:
is it about what works for us personally? What helps us get through the day?
For believers yes.
As long as what they believe harms nobody else, then I say go for it.
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