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Old 01-21-2022, 09:14 AM
 
29,439 posts, read 9,624,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Interesting take on it, but, yes. That was especially noticeable as I grew up, raised by my grandparents, who had lived through the Great Depression.

From about the age of 8 until I entered high school, I was required to go to the methodist church every Sunday at 11. At first I had to suffer through Sunday School, but finally at about age 10 I 'graduated' to real church. As I would sit there I would look at my grandmother focused solely on Reverend Durham (a very nice man) giving his sermon. We'd get home about 12:30 (Rev Durham was long winded) and for the next hour my grandmother would cook the most impressive meal of the week for Sunday dinner. Usually roast chicken, or something of the sort. We'd sit down to eat around 2. And sometimes, just to be irritating, as we ate I'd say to my grandmother, "What did Mr. Durham talk about today?" She never knew. She sat there in rapt attention, with every word of Rev Durham's sermon going in one ear and out the other. And this is why that old hymn always made me chuckle...religion without thinking...which often resulted in action without thinking of christian principles.
Was the sermon going in one ear and out the other or was your grandmother hard of hearing?

Not paying attention is not the same as being hard of hearing. Or am I unnecessarily complicating things here?
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Interesting how you leave out whole sections of my posts. I'd equate doing that to a lie.
Omission of facts is a great way to misrepresent the truth.
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
To me the ^above^ is important because Jesus taught that it is Scripture that is: 'religious truth' at John 17:17.
Pilate spoke of truth in general, but Jesus spoke of God's Truth - Psalms 12:6; Psalms 119:151; Psalms 119:160
Religious truth which includes having un-hypocritical love from the heart - 1st Peter 1:22
The truth is the truth no matter from where it comes!
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
Ha. I like your childhood stories, Phetaroi.

I do think there is thinking going on but maybe there is an attempt to simplify abstract notions by making them more concrete. Principles are abstract after all but sometimes a decision has to be made that is not ideal. This is why I think Learnme started this thread in order to gather different ideas on the process of determining truth from lies. Religion can often provide that decision-making process and simplify it with certain rules to follow. The concept of autonomy might be something to look at. There are times when people would like to be autonomous, for example, the freedom to believe in what they want. Then other times autonomy is removed when taking what one says at face value.
Yes, thanks, and after all is said and done along these lines generally speaking, it's only when we get into the specifics that we can really get a good look at how well anyone's process is working to determine what is the truth and what is not.
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
[QUOTE=GldnRule;62744711]
The idea "we have to stop doing that"...is just as unrealistic as embracing ideas that are not valid.
People always have, and always will, embrace concepts that are not objectively valid...and those who think stopping that is something they "have to do" are going to be sorely disappointed.
People function mostly on emotion and feelings rather than facts. Which is why so many took issue with the certain yellow haired guy...they based their assessment of him on emotional feelings about his personality (which is very displeasing) rather than a factual critique of the effects of overall legislation & orders signed into effect.
Most (and that is MOST) function on headtrips more than facts. And THAT is The Way Of The World.
If that "territory" was actually so very dangerous...humans would not have survived. Actually...instinct is probably much more efficient than "reason". For most of human history...humankind "knew" very few of the "facts" we have available currently.
Yes sadly they do. Which is precisely why so many believed the yellow haired guy that told them a pack of lies on a daily basis.
Some of us around here think integrity and truthfulness is still important, however 'unrealistic' that may be. Still it's something to strive for and something that should be insisted upon regardless what an uphill battle it may be.
We don't need to put up with lies in return for legislation. We can have honestly AND legislation. It depends on your sense of ethics.[/quote]

â€-------â€----------------------â€----------------------------------------------------------------

Politicians usually put forth something other than "Pure Truth"...the yellow haired guy was no better or worse than most in that regard.
The assessment should always be legislation & orders signed, and their overall effects...and nothing but that.
If you are looking for "integrity & truthfulness"...the Government personnel is a poor place to look.
They are the ones that legislate...even though few are personally upstanding...so, again, you must deal with that, like it or not.
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Is it "true", a "fact", that there are people who think Football is a great sport and activity? Yes or No?
And...is it "true", a "fact", that there are people who think Football is a dangerous waste of time & effort? Yes or No?
I said nothing about the veracity of the concepts...just that it is a fact people hold them. And that is what's true.
And this is where I see some continually make a mistake.
They assess whether a claim is true or not...and fail to consider how widely held it is.
I constantly try to explain what I call "The Way The World Works": Popular opinion and perception functions as reality to society overall. Especially if it is presented as meritorious.
For my entire childhood I ate meat & drank milk all the time...because it was presented as truth (remember the "Food Pyramid?) that was required to maintain good health. The end result of those so-called "facts" was the invention of Cardiac By-pass surgery, angioplasty & stents, and Statin drugs. But everybody did the same as I was at the time...because that was the information at the time. Then the info changed...and now some has changed back.
The same with Theology...the most epic and prolific books & writings in the history of humankind put forth what they do...and most believe what is written in them. To them...it isn't just "true"...it is the ultimate truth. So much so, these ideas saturate the world to the point that they are considered to be The Standard.
It is a "fact" that people firmly believe these concepts...and that is the "truth" that will drive views & behavior.
Perfect timing and case in point...

Specifics. Good, and with the specifics most of us can easily see what is clearly a flawed process with respect to establishing what is true and what is not. Specifically the confusing of subjective matters with objective truths. This is quite commonly where the flawed logic and reason can be found when finally we get to specifics like these. Simple repetition does not make flawed logic and reason any less flawed either.

Last edited by LearnMe; 01-21-2022 at 09:41 AM..
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
The biggest thing I see right now is a complete unwillingness to see simple truth for what it is. Our nation has bought into the lie that truth is subjective and is based on emotion.

That's evident in this forum, and its subforums, as much as anywhere.
No doubt the inability or unwillingness to recognize what is subjective opinion versus objective truth is a big part of the problem for all of us.
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
That's playing very fast and loose with the concept of fact.

It's a fact yes that people have opinions.
That does not mean that their opinions are facts.

And this is the problem we have is that people are stupid and cannot distinguish between the two and actually why a certain yellow haired guy had control for a while.

If a statement is made such as:
'A lot of people think that the election was rigged' , this doesn't mean that the election was rigged. It might be true that a lot of people think that the election was rigged because a certain person told them that the election was rigged. This does not mean the election was rigged.
But people cannot make the distinction and that's why it's very dangerous to say that just because people think something, it's a fact.
It's very dangerous territory and we have to stop doing it.
Very dangerous indeed, and even these alarm bells are being dismissed by those who can't seem to recognize the truth of these matters even if it bit them on the behind.
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heron31 View Post
Well, maybe 30% of our nation have that view. And I don't know if it's just based on simple emotion or based on the (apparently compelling) ravings of a popular carnival barker.

Quite so! To maintain your sanity, don't go near the politics forum!
The politics forum is where I used to spend all my time when I first came to this forum. Took me awhile, but I finally came around to your observation. All the more proof that confirmation bias is a very serious problem almost impossible to overcome. Also why I simply count on the next generation rather than this one to make any progress along these lines. The "slow maturing of man" is a generational process.

Not sure this forum is any better all considered, but for whatever reasons I left there and landed here. For now...

Last edited by LearnMe; 01-21-2022 at 09:42 AM..
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,511 posts, read 6,131,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Politicians usually put forth something other than "Pure Truth"...the yellow haired guy was no better or worse than most in that regard.
The assessment should always be legislation & orders signed, and their overall effects...and nothing but that.
If you are looking for "integrity & truthfulness"...the Government personnel is a poor place to look.
They are the ones that legislate...even though few are personally upstanding...so, again, you must deal with that, like it or not.
I strongly disagree on all counts.
1. The yellow haired guy was FAR worse than most.
2.
Quote:
The assessment should always be legislation & orders signed, and their overall effects...and nothing but that.
If no legislation was passed at all, it would be preferable to putting up with a government based on lies. This is not what we should be prepared to accept.
Honesty and integrity is important across the board and is actually important in my view for the country. Like I said we should strive for both, not one at the expense of the other.
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