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Old 01-09-2022, 08:01 AM
 
29,405 posts, read 9,588,991 times
Reputation: 3441

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Sorry. I can't help you.
You can help all of us by changing your focus back to the topic of this thread. "Leave it." Pretty please...
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Old 01-09-2022, 08:06 AM
 
29,405 posts, read 9,588,991 times
Reputation: 3441
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I don't know how to explain this clearly enough but it seems that if there is a request to distinguish between the truth and the lies, it almost puts them on equal footing. For example, think of a t-chart. On the left the heading is "truth" and on the right, the heading is "lies."

But the way people talk about the truth, such as ultimate truth, I then perceive it as something that sits above and beyond everything else.
Okay...

Not all that different from a list of foods that are healthy on the left and a list of foods that are not on the right. Right? About this too for us to educate ourselves and judge as we will. As best we are able.

Indeed, in how many ways are we called upon to, as dear old mom used to say, "make the right choices!" Those who are not able, not only harm themselves but generally others too, and this is why I will continue to argue that critical thinking and choosing right over wrong is our only way of making progress as a people, as a society.

Doesn't take everyone! Just takes enough people is all. Either you are part of the problem or you are part of the progress we can and should be making one generation after the next.
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Old 01-09-2022, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Rural America
269 posts, read 327,875 times
Reputation: 1382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strannik33 View Post
The only way to tell truth from lies is to develop critical thinking. How? Let's see. . .
Take a one-month break from the MSM, the NPR, the TV. Watch only the Fox News between 8 and 10 pm.... That would be the beginning of your critical thinking.
Is this a joke? Or do you mean by watching Fox, etc., you would get so many examples of lies that you would then know what they look like? For example, here are some of the latest falsehoods coming out of Fox News.
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Old 01-09-2022, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,412 posts, read 23,989,654 times
Reputation: 32716
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
You can help all of us by changing your focus back to the topic of this thread. "Leave it." Pretty please...
Today is a new day.
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Old 01-09-2022, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,504 posts, read 6,122,425 times
Reputation: 6548
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Chin up, and remember it's quite common to become more and more cynical with age. I used to share this before, as part of the effort to better understand what is happening around us...

Has the U.S. motto become ‘In Nothing We Trust’?

https://www.city-data.com/forum/elec...e-nothing.html
I don't need to 'chin up', I've just come to face facts.
I've had my eyes opened to human behavior where I was once blinded by my own misguided optimism.
It's largely due to moving to the US, sad to say, but not wholly that. Things aren't great back in the UK either with regards to believing nonsense, but its definitely a whole lot worse here.

I'm not sure what leads people to believe absolute garbage though I have my suspicions why it's worse here. I used to think it was harmless but you are right, it's not harmless, it is dangerous and at the very least it can be very unpleasant.

Here are some of my suspicions:
1 Religion here is deeply set in. With that there's an in built tendency to believe in the fantastical.
2. America is a very big country. The physical size makes change slow to happen.
3. A system of government that is deliberately designed to make big changes extremely difficult.

All this makes Americans very set in their ways with an inability at times to be objective. If something doesn't fit with their religion, their policies or the constitution, they don't even want to consider it as a possibility even if it would make their life better.
The UK while having a Christian head of state, has far less built-in religiosity.
What I've observed is that some of the more fantastical stuff starts in the US, then gradually is absorbed into UK culture over time.
I've observed this particularly during the pandemic where most (not all) of the crackpot theories, for example Bill Gates inventing the virus, so that we would all have to buy his vaccine, started here.
There are a million political ones but don't get me started.

The UK has it's fair share of crackpot conspiracy theorists as well though. I'm under no illusion about that. It's just more pronounced in the US or maybe amplified because it its physical size.
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Old 01-09-2022, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Rural America
269 posts, read 327,875 times
Reputation: 1382
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Even what is at any given time touted as "Scientifically Verified Truth" that people know as "facts", can turn out to be "embracing falsehood".
Science never claims anything to be "the truth." There are, however, verified observations that can be considered facts. I mean, it's not really up for debate that the Earth orbits the Sun, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
The OP notes even Political views.... And most of that is simply preferences as to how one would like things to be...and not "hard truth or falsehood". Most policy concepts...domestic, foreign, social, military, economic, etc...are not even "true---false" type things.
Right. Those type things could be considered opinions. My point is, there are things that are "true---false" type things. And the OP asks how do we distinguish the true from the false? Obviously, evidence plays a major role.
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Old 01-09-2022, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Rural America
269 posts, read 327,875 times
Reputation: 1382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I'm not sure what leads people to believe absolute garbage....
Yeah, good question. With so much of what we hear about people believing, it's like, you've GOT to be kidding!
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Old 01-09-2022, 09:24 AM
 
15,856 posts, read 6,925,328 times
Reputation: 8513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heron31 View Post
Science never claims anything to be "the truth." There are, however, verified observations that can be considered facts. I mean, it's not really up for debate that the Earth orbits the Sun, for example.


Right. Those type things could be considered opinions. My point is, there are things that are "true---false" type things. And the OP asks how do we distinguish the true from the false? Obviously, evidence plays a major role.
Facts are conclusions drawn from a set of observations and tested. Truth is a concept, it is a knowing.
Facts and evidence are so only till they are proven wrong. Truth never changes.
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Old 01-09-2022, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,412 posts, read 23,989,654 times
Reputation: 32716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heron31 View Post
Science never claims anything to be "the truth." There are, however, verified observations that can be considered facts. I mean, it's not really up for debate that the Earth orbits the Sun, for example.


...
'Science', as a body, says, essentially, 'based on what we know now'. In fact, that's been very obvious as we've worked through the current pandemic. And a couple of days ago I read an article that there was being a reconsideration of Pluto as a planet. When I was majoring in geology, continental drift/plate tectonics was all the rage, although it wasn't really a new concept in the early 1970s. But I distinctly remember my professors often predicating lessons with the 'based on what we know now' or 'it appears that' standard. What does happen, in my view, is that with certain scientific situations, 'science' moves on from heavy debate and begins to accept things...but always leaves the door open a crack.
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Old 01-09-2022, 09:39 AM
 
29,405 posts, read 9,588,991 times
Reputation: 3441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I don't need to 'chin up', I've just come to face facts.
I've had my eyes opened to human behavior where I was once blinded by my own misguided optimism.
It's largely due to moving to the US, sad to say, but not wholly that. Things aren't great back in the UK either with regards to believing nonsense, but its definitely a whole lot worse here.

I'm not sure what leads people to believe absolute garbage though I have my suspicions why it's worse here. I used to think it was harmless but you are right, it's not harmless, it is dangerous and at the very least it can be very unpleasant.

Here are some of my suspicions:
1 Religion here is deeply set in. With that there's an in built tendency to believe in the fantastical.
2. America is a very big country. The physical size makes change slow to happen.
3. A system of government that is deliberately designed to make big changes extremely difficult.

All this makes Americans very set in their ways with an inability at times to be objective. If something doesn't fit with their religion, their policies or the constitution, they don't even want to consider it as a possibility even if it would make their life better.
The UK while having a Christian head of state, has far less built-in religiosity.
What I've observed is that some of the more fantastical stuff starts in the US, then gradually is absorbed into UK culture over time.
I've observed this particularly during the pandemic where most (not all) of the crackpot theories, for example Bill Gates inventing the virus, so that we would all have to buy his vaccine, started here.
There are a million political ones but don't get me started.

The UK has it's fair share of crackpot conspiracy theorists as well though. I'm under no illusion about that. It's just more pronounced in the US or maybe amplified because it its physical size.
Sorry. I didn't mean to suggest you should do anything other than to face facts and deal with them as best you are able. I try to do the same...

As we mature into adults, I suppose we all have our eyes opened over time about human behavior, but if I may, while I too have been quite dismayed and disappointed about American and world events of late, I also had my eyes opened long ago about human nature. Our history going back a long time now. I don't know how familiar you are with this history, but what we're seeing now and much you describe the way you do is really nothing new. I mean consider our history including WWI, WWII, our own American Civil War. Read about the political discord going back all the way to the founding of this country, and it's amazing that from the beginning we've never been hesitant to bend the truth all to FUBAR in the name of our drive for power, money and influence. It's been as bad if not worse since well before any of us were born. Issues with religion and such have also been quite profound compared to present day, though about this too we've still got much progress to make.

What consolation is this to anyone? Can't speak for anyone else, but for me, despite all the negatives and backwardness, I am still nevertheless encouraged by the progress we HAVE made and continue to make in so many important ways. As already touched upon in this thread and wherever else I have posted about the "slow maturing of man."

Here's to you and everyone else who is part of that progress as I sign off now and get on with other ways to make my day as good as I'm able. Cheers!
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