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Whether prayers get answered or not, to our desired outcome is obviously a scenario where you can only try, and hope for the best and settle for whatever the outcome is. That's generally the mindset of a believer.
So praying = 'hope for the best'.
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However, besides that, are you guys saying that when Atheists wish someone a safe trip, or a goodnight wish, it's actually a fake and shallow formation of words that don't really have any meaning to it - because Atheists already know that "it won't have any effect on the universe whatsoever" - you guys say it, just so that the listener feels better about you and know that you care?
^^^
No. We 'hope for the best'. Exactly the same thing that you said you do above.
As you stated above, you know your prayer is just a hope for the best and you settle for whatever the outcome is, knowing your prayer has no real effect. It's no different.
So praying = 'hope for the best'.
^^^
No. We 'hope for the best'. Exactly the same thing that you said you do above.
As you stated above, you know your prayer is just a hope for the best and you settle for whatever the outcome is, knowing your prayer has no real effect. It's no different.
Cruithne, I like to think and hope you meant to say THINKING "your prayer has no real effect" is no different!
And hope something supernatural is hearing your prayer...
And that is probably why you fight so hard to reject and disallow my concept of God to be used. You want to use the notion of the supernatural (which does not exist) to disparage prayer. In my view as part of God's "infinite body," disparaging prayers would be equivalent to disparaging the pain signals from our own bodies to get our conscious attention to problems.
And that is probably why you fight so hard to reject and disallow my concept of God to be used. You want to use the notion of the supernatural (which does not exist) to disparage prayer. In my view as part of God's "infinite body," disparaging prayers would be equivalent to disparaging the pain signals from our own bodies to get our conscious attention to problems.
They draw their conclusions using their obviously deficient abilities.
Most (and that is MOST) that have ever lived in the past couple thousand years can perceive and understand the usefulness of directing Positive Conscious Energy (prayer).
I would venture to say that on any given day the better part of a billion "Praying Hands" emojis & emoticons are put on social media. By every kind of person...including the most highly educated and sophisticated, and even world leaders. How many times have we heard a speech by a world leader that is concluded with calls for blessings & prayers?
The view that someone praying for you is a useful, positive and desired thing, is so nearly universally held...it could be considered a Standard of Human Understanding. To think otherwise is to be in breach of that Standard, and can be dismissed as defective thinking.
There is something wrong with this small segment of the populace...I do not know *exactly* what is wrong with them, but it's certainly something.
It is most unfortunate...and I will pray for them.
They draw their conclusions using their obviously deficient abilities.
Kind of insulting. We think differently than you do.
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Most (and that is MOST) that have ever lived in the past couple thousand years can perceive and understand the usefulness of directing Positive Conscious Energy (prayer).
I would venture to say that on any given day the better part of a billion "Praying Hands" emojis & emoticons are put on social media. By every kind of person...including the most highly educated and sophisticated, and even world leaders. How many times have we heard a speech by a world leader that is concluded with calls for blessings & prayers? The view that someone praying for you is a useful, positive and desired thing, is so nearly universally held...it could be considered a Standard of Human Understanding. To think otherwise is to be in breach of that Standard, and can be dismissed as defective thinking.
There is something wrong with this small segment of the populace...I do not know *exactly* what is wrong with them, but it's certainly something.
It is most unfortunate...and I will pray for them.
I think you have me all wrong.
Like everything, these things have more nuances than there's often time to get into so I'll expand a bit.
I think praying IS useful and meaningful and positive. The point is, the usefulness and meaningfulness comes from YOU and the person you directed it to (as long as they know you are praying for them) and even has a collective usefulness.
There 100% is a placebo effect going on. The placebo effect is absolutely real.
My husband who works in medical / drug research has to take the placebo effect into account all the time. The power of the mind is strong but limited. A positive attitude is not going to cure you of cancer but it might help you get over a cold more quickly. If you are given a drug that you are convinced works but you've actually only been given a placebo made from starch, it still might help... a bit.
It's the same effect going on with praying. A collective group of people praying together is a beautiful thing. It's a lot of people wishing a lot of people well. Nothing wrong with that.
My point is, it's coming from YOU not god.
And no amount of praying is going to prevent a skidding car from driving into you.
And just because I don't believe in god, that doesn't stop me hoping all my family and friends and everyone on CD stays healthy.
I've had people tell me they are praying for me in the past and I'm grateful for it, because its a nice thing to do.
Kind of insulting. We think differently than you do.
I think you have me all wrong.
Like everything, these things have more nuances than there's often time to get into so I'll expand a bit.
I think praying IS useful and meaningful and positive. The point is, the usefulness and meaningfulness comes from YOU and the person you directed it to (as long as they know you are praying for them) and even has a collective usefulness.
There 100% is a placebo effect going on. The placebo effect is absolutely real.
My husband who works in medical / drug research has to take the placebo effect into account all the time. The power of the mind is strong but limited. A positive attitude is not going to cure you of cancer but it might help you get over a cold more quickly. If you are given a drug that you are convinced works but you've actually only been given a placebo made from starch, it still might help... a bit.
It's the same effect going on with praying. A collective group of people praying together is a beautiful thing. It's a lot of people wishing a lot of people well. Nothing wrong with that.
My point is, it's coming from YOU not god.
And no amount of praying is going to prevent a skidding car from driving into you.
And just because I don't believe in god, that doesn't stop me hoping all my family and friends and everyone on CD stays healthy.
I've had people tell me they are praying for me in the past and I'm grateful for it, because its a nice thing to do.
It is true that some Atheists (my previous view) think differently than me.
What is really insulting is that it is common for some to refer to Religious Belief/Faith and Praying as "delusional" and indicative of mental illness. Even threads about that very thing.
I take a differing view.
Of course...I many times see the Atheists take the exchanges about prayer to things like "reqrowing lost limbs", "ending all world hunger", etc. As if God is a "Magic Genie" from a lamp that you appeal to in order get wishes granted.
This is just a way to twist the insult knife. One would be hard-pressed to find any Theist that thought they could rectify those things through prayer.
On the other hand...it is a Standard of Human Understanding to be aware that prayer (Positive Conscious Energy) is useful, positive, and desirable...and that in and of itself could never cause any hurt or harm. Few lack that perception...let alone catch a attitude that someone might pray for them.
This is all based upon my Pantheist perception of God...and my understanding of how things actually are in this world.
It is true that some Atheists (my previous view) think differently than me.
What is really insulting is that it is common for some to refer to Religious Belief/Faith and Praying as "delusional" and indicative of mental illness. Even threads about that very thing.
I take a differing view.
Of course...I many times see the Atheists take the exchanges about prayer to things like "reqrowing lost limbs", "ending all world hunger", etc. As if God is a "Magic Genie" from a lamp that you appeal to in order get wishes granted.
This is just a way to twist the insult knife. One would be hard-pressed to find any Theist that thought they could rectify those things through prayer.
On the other hand...it is a Standard of Human Understanding to be aware that prayer (Positive Conscious Energy) is useful, positive, and desirable...and that in and of itself could never cause any hurt or harm. Few lack that perception...let alone catch a attitude that someone might pray for them.
This is all based upon my Pantheist perception of God...and my understanding of how things actually are in this world.
It isn't that we think that god is a "Magic Genie". It's that in christianity it is claimed that he answers prayers. And we have had more than one person right on this forum play the old I prayed and found my car keys routine. It is not about insulting the religion. It is about asking for substantiation for great claims. And what we always seem to get in return are excuses about why certain prayers are not answered. We are not going to accept the you just have to believe admonition. That's fine for a Walt Disney fantasy, but it's not enough to base a life on...at least for us. You gotta prove it. And I wish you could prove it. I truly wish you could. But so far no one has. That's why my grandmother didn't buy the vacuum cleaner the door to door salesman was selling, and that's why I'm not gonna buy your religion...again.
I am perfectly happy that you are satisfied with your religious beliefs. However, ultimately I was not satisfied when I gave up my belief. And you don't seem to understand that you saying these same things over and over are not satisfactory for me/us to change my/our minds. It's nothing against you personally, you just haven't met my/our standard. It's the same reason I don't try to ever convince anyone to become a Buddhist, or to believe in reincarnation, or half-lives.
Your perception of god is your perception of god. Why isn't that good enough for you? Why do the rest of us have to have the same belief?
It isn't that we think that god is a "Magic Genie". It's that in christianity it is claimed that he answers prayers. And we have had more than one person right on this forum play the old I prayed and found my car keys routine. It is not about insulting the religion. It is about asking for substantiation for great claims. And what we always seem to get in return are excuses about why certain prayers are not answered. We are not going to accept the you just have to believe admonition. That's fine for a Walt Disney fantasy, but it's not enough to base a life on...at least for us. You gotta prove it. And I wish you could prove it. I truly wish you could. But so far no one has. That's why my grandmother didn't buy the vacuum cleaner the door to door salesman was selling, and that's why I'm not gonna buy your religion...again.
I am perfectly happy that you are satisfied with your religious beliefs. However, ultimately I was not satisfied when I gave up my belief. And you don't seem to understand that you saying these same things over and over are not satisfactory for me/us to change my/our minds. It's nothing against you personally, you just haven't met my/our standard. It's the same reason I don't try to ever convince anyone to become a Buddhist, or to believe in reincarnation, or half-lives.
Your perception of god is your perception of god. Why isn't that good enough for you? Why do the rest of us have to have the same belief?
I'm a Pantheist...and accept the Theological views of others.
Again...the real issue is that the metaphorical and allegorical works of literary art are taken literally.
But you can't just note that, and discuss that...you have to talk about "finding lost key instead of restoring lost limbs", and other derisive tropes.
Also...if you take the writings literally...all your objections are fully covered and proved, and I have explained how.
I'm a Pantheist...and accept the Theological views of others.
Again...the real issue is that the metaphorical and allegorical works of literary art are taken literally.
But you can't just note that, and discuss that...you have to talk about "finding lost key instead of restoring lost limbs", and other derisive tropes.
Also...if you take the writings literally...all your objections are fully covered and proved, and I have explained how.
First of all, I don't expect limbs to be regrown. BUT, if christians are going to say -- as many often do -- that 'all things are possible through prayer'...then such requests for proof are not unreasonable.
It's not unlike the yearly public meeting where I would give a sort of 'state of the school' address. I didn't get up in front and say, "We are doing a great job, you just have to accept that". I would say something like, "Once again, our middle school sent more students on to the high school for science and technology than any of the other middle schools in the county...and here are the stats". I would say something like, "Of all the middle schools in our county -- 24 in all -- our test scores on the state math test were the highest (or second highest, depending on the year)". And so forth. I didn't make a claim that I couldn't back up. And if christians are going to tell me that "all things are possible through prayer", then they have to prove it if they wish to satisfy me about their claim. I expect the same from a company that claims they have the best product. I expect no more and no less from a religious group that makes great claims.
A couple of you go on and on about "metaphorical and allegorical works of literary art are taken literally", as one of our arguments. Why do we do that? Because many christians say that they are not metaphorical and allegorical. Within the past few days there was another post, from a christian, stating not only that the Adam & Eve story was true, but told us exactly where the Garden Of Eden was. That was a christian making the claim. Okay, prove it.
You think "all [our] objections are fully covered and proved". We don't agree. Period. And you just saying it over and over again isn't changing our minds. It may fit your standard of evidence; it does not fit ours.
And by the way, I feel exactly the same way about things in Buddhism. The idea that there have been multiple 'historical' Buddhas, each separated by a period of time when Buddhism nearly died out, is a fantasy. It would mean that some Australopithecan was a Buddha. No evidence for that whatsoever. The concept of enlightenment/nibnna...maybe...no actual evidence that proves it. The concept of past lives...I believe it, but I admit I can't prove it.
If you want us to accept your beliefs, then you have to satisfy our questions...and you don't. So my suggestion to you is go practice your religion as you see fit, and stop trying to force others to believe as you do. Ultimately, that's what this discussion is all about.
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