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I'll play the devil's advocate here and go along with the notion that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a description of an actual event. That said, whether from a Muslim or from a Christian perspective it seems that many within each group fail to apply logic and reason to the story of S&G. A pertinent question to ask for starters might be, WHATEVER ‘the sins’ of S&G were, was it REALLY justifiable for God to have destroyed every man, woman, child, and baby in the process?
It’s written that God asked Abraham to present just 50, dropping to 40, then to 30, then to 20, then to 10, righteous people and the cities would then be spared His wrath. Just out of curiosity …how many people TODAY in our cities would be found to be ‘righteous’ if God asked for a show of hands? Would there be even ten? Moreover, who would determine who those ten would be? Yet, whenever the S&G saga is raised by Christians to condemn the gay community, they assume in their judgmental finger-pointing arrogance that THEY are among the righteous asked of God.
Another point to seriously consider. How many times have any of you witnessed an enormous hoard of gay people – in fact, the ENTIRE city! - barreling down the street to bang on someone’s door demanding sex with the house occupants? I can honestly say that I personally have never witnessed or even heard of such a thing. Yet again, the story of S&G DOES tell such a story and that story is in turn leveled at the gay community as though THIS IS what homosexual people typically do! Nah, the men of Sodom were potential (in this case) heterosexual (see below) rapists out to emasculate unwelcome male visitors to their city!
Another point to ponder for those who are capable of serious pondering is that the men of S&G had wives and probably also off-spring. Does this sound like a community of homosexuals? Not hardly. Yes, gay people might marry and may even have children in their attempts to comply with society’s expectations for they and everyone else. We're all expected to follow societal norms, i.e. conform to the tribe. However, from what we know of S&G from the Bible and Quran descriptions of these cities, they would hardly be models for everyone ‘appearing to be doing the right thing’. Yep, the men of Sodom were heterosexual and the incident with Lot's guests had nothing to do with 'homosexuality' per se.
Years ago, when I was an apprentice and I would occasionally mess up or do or say something stupid, the boss would say (pointing to his head) “Head for thinking and (pointing to his feet) feet for dancing.” I found his catch-phrase to be corny and also irritating. However, there IS something in that saying that rings true and might be useful when it comes to THIS particular topic.
Well, the story most likely came about on a night around a campfire when someone asked, "Hey, what are those ruins from over there on that next hill?"
And so a tale was woven to explain why the enemy Moabites and Ammonites were such terrible people!
That explains my neighbor back in Moab whose vanity plate read "Moabite", lol.
Whether it's literal or a morality tale, we have not absorbed it very well since we're still not taking care of the poor (very well), not welcoming the "stranger", and certainly have a gluttony problem, and are prideful and greedy. As a society, not individuals.
If one is going by the Bible, that's why S&G were destroyed.
Whether it's literal or a morality tale, we have not absorbed it very well since we're still not taking care of the poor (very well), not welcoming the "stranger", and certainly have a gluttony problem, and are prideful and greedy. As a society, not individuals.
If one is going by the Bible, that's why S&G were destroyed.
Yep. That's precisely the reason given in Ezekiel 16:49-50:
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me..."
Yep. That's precisely the reason given in Ezekiel 16:49-50:
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me..."
You have to wonder what the reaction would be, if God destroyed a city (due to Gluttony, sexual sins, obesity, greed, etc)...Would people mourn the lost or praise God for the destruction?
If they mourn, that is essentially making God out to be the bad guy.
I often wonder if anyone living in nearby cities to Sodom/Gomorrah mourned the loss of the ENTIRE towns?! Seems like there would have been at least some that did...
Yep. That's precisely the reason given in Ezekiel 16:49-50:
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
You have to wonder what the reaction would be, if God destroyed a city (due to Gluttony, sexual sins, obesity, greed, etc)...Would people mourn the lost or praise God for the destruction.
If they mourn, that is essentially making God out to be the bad guy.
I often wonder if anyone living in nearby cities to Sodom/Gomorrah mourned the loss of the ENTIRE towns?! Seems like there would have been at least some that did...
Well, it would seem that S&G were but two of what were known as the 'five cities of the plain'. Four were destroyed (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiin) and, at Lot's request, Zoar was spared by God. This sparing of Zoar and everything that occurred beyond this seems to have been a part of the ultimate plan from the get-go. Lot and his two daughters dwelt in a cave in the mountains of Zoar where - and this is something that never seems to get preached about in church - Lot had an incestuous relationship with both daughters thereby resulting in two male offspring, Moab and Ben-Ammi. And, as they say, the rest of the story is history. None of this would have occurred had Sodom not been destroyed.
*In Lot's defense ...the daughters DID get him drunk prior to the incestuous relationship so this was all involuntary on his part.
Something else that's always glossed over or ignored whenever the destruction of Sodom is preached is that all the babies, the toddlers, and the children were also killed by the hand of the Almighty. Apparently they were merely hapless casualties of their gluttonous, obese, greedy, pagan idol worshiping parents. The justification for God having done this, according to those Christians who jump to God's defense, is that those babies, toddlers and children would eventually grow up to be gluttonous, obese, greedy, pagan idol worshiping people just like their parents. And so God, in His wisdom, made sure that this would not, could not happen.
Well, it would seem that S&G were but two of what were known as the 'five cities of the plain'. Four were destroyed (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiin) and, at Lot's request, Zoar was spared by God. This sparing of Zoar and everything that occurred beyond this seems to have been a part of the ultimate plan from the get-go. Lot and his two daughters dwelt in a cave in the mountains of Zoar where - and this is something that never seems to get preached about in church - Lot had an incestuous relationship with both daughters thereby resulting in two male offspring, Moab and Ben-Ammi. And, as they say, the rest of the story is history. None of this would have occurred had Sodom not been destroyed.
*In Lot's defense ...the daughters DID get him drunk prior to the incestuous relationship so this was all involuntary on his part.
Something else that's always glossed over or ignored whenever the destruction of Sodom is preached is that all the babies, the toddlers, and the children were also killed by the hand of the Almighty. Apparently they were merely hapless casualties of their gluttonous, obese, greedy, pagan idol worshiping parents. The justification for God having done this, according to those Christians who jump to God's defense, is that those babies, toddlers and children would eventually grow up to be gluttonous, obese, greedy, pagan idol worshiping people just like their parents. And so God, in His wisdom, made sure that this would not, could not happen.
Well, since it was God that destroyed those 2 cities, and yes, babies and children were also killed...but its an act of God...(he is the only one who has the right to kill indiscriminately), he made all those people to begin with, so, its different when God destroys and kills, (much different than if another human had destroyed the cities).
We all know WHY S&G were destroyed, and like another poster mentioned, cities today are guilty of the EXACT same things, and probably worse than S&G actually!...
But our modern cities have been like this for decades...I guess the real question is...How long did S&G continue on like they did, (before God finally said enough is enough)? Could that time period not give us some indication on how long it takes for God to act in a significant way?
Im not sure if the bible details how long S&G were cities of sexual sin though? Less than 200 years, more? IDK.
We all know WHY S&G were destroyed, and like another poster mentioned, cities today are guilty of the EXACT same things, and probably worse than S&G actually!...
But our modern cities have been like this for decades...I guess the real question is...How long did S&G continue on like they did, (before God finally said enough is enough)? Could that time period not give us some indication on how long it takes for God to act in a significant way?
I'm not sure if the bible details how long S&G were cities of sexual sin though? Less than 200 years, more? IDK.
Good point. I wonder which was the straw that broke the camel's back? Since God had already drawn plans to destroy the cities PRIOR to "the Lot, the angels and the men" debacle, it clearly was not that incident that tipped the scales. Then again, if the story is fiction then it's hardly worth losing any sleep over it. Even though some will argue until they're blue in the face that the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been located, the facts are that there is absolutely no reliable archaeological evidence for this.
Good point. I wonder which was the straw that broke the camel's back? Since God had already drawn plans to destroy the cities PRIOR to "the Lot, the angels and the men" debacle, it clearly was not that incident that tipped the scales. Then again, if the story is fiction then it's hardly worth losing any sleep over it. Even though some will argue until they're blue in the face that the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been located, the facts are that there is absolutely no reliable archaeological evidence for this.
Yep and thats one thing I noticed about Christianity overall, thru out the bible, God intervenes and/or acts frequently in the human world, (usually in supernatural, dramatic fashion), but for around 2000 yrs, he has been silent? That does not compute and does not line up with Christianity in general...
Especially when you consider the modern world has 'blasphemed' God way worse than S&G ever did...for petes sake, our version of 'Christmas'( which is supposed to be Jesus birth into our world)...its actually been a celebration and orgy of GREED...and STILL God does not act? LOL Even the Catholic church plays into the 'modern version of Christmas'...Id venture to say NO catholic priest is instructing their parish to have nothing to do with the secular Christmas? (because the gift giving aspect of modern Christmas is literally blasphemous to God in the most extreme way).
Good point. I wonder which was the straw that broke the camel's back? Since God had already drawn plans to destroy the cities PRIOR to "the Lot, the angels and the men" debacle, it clearly was not that incident that tipped the scales. Then again, if the story is fiction then it's hardly worth losing any sleep over it. Even though some will argue until they're blue in the face that the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been located, the facts are that there is absolutely no reliable archaeological evidence for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
Yep and thats one thing I noticed about Christianity overall, thru out the bible, God intervenes and/or acts frequently in the human world, (usually in supernatural, dramatic fashion), but for around 2000 yrs, he has been silent? That does not compute and does not line up with Christianity in general...
Another good point ...man, you're on fire!
Yes, God HAS been remarkably quiet - and uncharacteristically so from an Old Testament biblical perspective - for the past couple of millennium-plus. Why HASN'T He demonstrated His wrath present-day where it often appears to have been justified? Why the deafening silence from God? Anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
Especially when you consider the modern world has 'blasphemed' God way worse than S&G ever did...for petes sake, our version of 'Christmas'( which is supposed to be Jesus birth into our world)...its actually been a celebration and orgy of GREED...and STILL God does not act? LOL Even the Catholic church plays into the 'modern version of Christmas'...Id venture to say NO catholic priest is instructing their parish to have nothing to do with the secular Christmas? (because the gift giving aspect of modern Christmas is literally blasphemous to God in the most extreme way).
Yes, quite so. And, probably at no other time in earth's history has idolatry - a DEFINITE no-no on God's 'taboo list' - been so prevalent as it is today. It's a wonder we don't have churches dedicated to and named after the many celebrities that are worshiped today in entertainment and sports by the millions. Not only the worship of these folks by their adoring fans but their also having contributed to the lavish lifestyles of these idols. The fans probably live from day to day in rental properties attempting to make ends meet, meanwhile the idols live like kings and queens in mansions. This really should be a general ???? moment as well as a "Where is God today?" moment.
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