Does Modern Cosmology Prove The Universe Had A Beginning? (exist, Earth, before)

[Arach Angle]

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I'd caution you and yours to be a little more careful about describing some of these differences the way you do. Always strikes me as all too much thinking you have the "chops" or whatever ability to see things the way other people like me tend to see things. Nothing having to do with having chops in any case. Please. The facts of these matters is one thing. These sorts of comments are quite another...

Yeah, insult aside, you don't have to connect the dots for the good of your belief system. I have no such concern. The universe is what it is.

Lets look at the facts ...

we are part of a larger more complex system.

then we discuss ..

Do we have a classification that we can use to compare that system. I know you would prefer thinking that I don't know what you know, but comparing and unknown to a known is known as a measurement. Two bruad classifications are alive and not alive. With a tweener. The base unit is a cell. Just use that.

If you have the chops (I personally don't care here. If you have them you know the observations I use are basic) and we are in a belief site where we can just compare your claim to mine, then chops are not a concern. We can discuss what happens when you don't offer a belief and the one that is offered has a mechanism, explanation, is repeatable, and make predictions.

You known, since you imply you have the chops and want to focus on "facts".

[Arach Angle]

Originally Posted by Heron31

Well, if you call gravity and electromagnetism organizing principles, OK. And yes, biological self-organization is well described in Kauffman's At Home in the Universe.

Oh, you mean from the humans on this planet? Yeah.

Yeah, the standard model really tied together all the plethora of elementary particles.

"This whole hotchpotch of subatomic particles first appeared in the 1950s and '60s. 'Had I foreseen this I would have gone into botany,' was how Enrico Fermi reacted."

Then as Leon Lederman later said in one of his books when things were a little better understood....

"We will chronicle the construction of the standard model, which contains all the elementary particles needed to make all the matter in the universe, past or present, plus the forces that act upon these particles."

Of course, he was leaving out what makes up dark matter, which is yet unknown, not to mention dark energy, which is a near total mystery.

yes, I restrict my belief to the earth. That way I can just point to it and ask people "What do you think?" My belief is that the biosphere matches alive more than not alive. That is it. I have no emotional attachment to it past listen to people tell me where it is wrong and or comparing it to their belief.

humans and animals are "nodes" of complexity in the system. Like your brain is a node in you. I mean you are aware. You tummy is part of you and is not aware. In fact, using composition only, we are just a collection of atoms, one might say awareness shouldn't exists. As the "aliveness" grew in size and complexity it would probably have to make adjustments to allow for growth. Much like "aliveness" adjusted from single to multi celled organisms.

To the last part. The field theories tied it all together even more for me. I kind of saw it before but gravity waves sealed the deal for me. We are all on the same "space-time" frame work. Again, much like all those proteins are the same cell. Space-time may not be fundamental but we are all the exact same fields.

Space-time is having a human experience in our neck of the woods.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

yes, I restrict my belief to the earth. That way I can just point to it and ask people "What do you think?" My belief is that the biosphere matches alive more than not alive. That is it. I have no emotional attachment to it past listen to people tell me where it is wrong and or comparing it to their belief.

humans and animals are "nodes" of complexity in the system. Like your brain is a node in you. I mean you are aware. You tummy is part of you and is not aware. In fact, using composition only, we are just a collection of atoms, one might say awareness shouldn't exists. As the "aliveness" grew in size and complexity it would probably have to make adjustments to allow for growth. Much like "aliveness" adjusted from single to multi celled organisms.

To the last part. The field theories tied it all together even more for me. I kind of saw it before but gravity waves sealed the deal for me. We are all on the same "space-time" frame work. Again, much like all those proteins are the same cell. Space-time may not be fundamental but we are all the exact same fields.

Space-time is having a human experience in our neck of the woods.

I fear you are spiting into the wind with some people, Arach. They simply do not entertain the levels of abstraction that you so easily accommodate.