What is the concept of heaven to you? (priest, divorce, faith)

[chief scum]

Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8

Honestly, I didn't test his theory either. He should have married Amber.

Well, just tell him to crap in one of his hands and to let you decide which hand you want to hold. You could tell him to wash the crap out of the hand holding the crap first though. It would be kind of awkward.

[elyn02]

Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8

Thanks for pointing out Mordant's post. I missed it but it brought up an interesting idea. In my sect, and maybe you we saw some of the same things, is there was a notion of earning salvation. So maybe they justify it by saying "I deserve it and others don't.". In my group they called it "right heart condition.". Underserved Grace was a reward.

Definitely. As others have pointed out, the "lazies" have to be kept out. However, I do see a difference between the concept of earning salvation and right heart condition. Right heard condition sounds like hard work is not enough and what also needs to be considered is the reason why somebody works hard in the first place - a right reason and a wrong reason.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8

In my sect, and maybe you we saw some of the same things, is there was a notion of earning salvation. So maybe they justify it by saying "I deserve it and others don't.". In my group they called it "right heart condition.". Underserved Grace was a reward.

Grace itself means "unmerited favor" and so inherently all grace is undeserved and freely given. It is not a reward because you don't merit it anyway (all have sinned and come short of the glory of god).

So this JW notion that "undeserved grace" (a needless exposition rather like "deadly murder") seems incoherent to me in terms at least of how mainstream creedal Christianity understands the concept of grace. "Right heart condition" sounds to me like wanting grace for the 'correct' motives or reasons but as there is in Christian orthodoxy no way to remotely "deserve" god's grace it seems to be trying to require that you be deserving when you can't be.

Of course I have no skin in this game anymore and feel it is nonsense all the way down, but ... that is how I would have responded to this idea as an evangelical Christian.

[Matthew 4:4]

Originally Posted by mordant

Grace itself means "unmerited favor" and so inherently all grace is undeserved and freely given. It is not a reward because you don't merit it anyway (all have sinned and come short of the glory of god).
So this JW notion that "undeserved grace" (a needless exposition rather like "deadly murder") seems incoherent to me in terms at least of how mainstream creedal Christianity understands the concept of grace. "Right heart condition" sounds to me like wanting grace for the 'correct' motives or reasons but as there is in Christian orthodoxy no way to remotely "deserve" god's grace it seems to be trying to require that you be deserving when you can't be.
Of course I have no skin in this game anymore and feel it is nonsense all the way down, but ... that is how I would have responded to this idea as an evangelical Christian.

God's grace as God's 'undeserved kindness' towards us I find at www.jw.org.
ALL have treacherous hearts - Jeremiah 17:9
The imperfect heart urges us to do something and after we do it the heart gives us all the reasons why we should not have done what we did in the first place.
So, the imperfect heart is like have a traitor within us.

[chief scum]

Originally Posted by Sand&Salt

Never posted here but I want to hear people's opinions, not an endless stream of Bible verses.

The Christian version of heaven doesn't sound all that appealing and sometimes I think I'd rather not "go", lol. Saying this as a struggling believer.

A new, perfect Earth does sound appealing but the golden streets, being rulers and all that---- And more judgement! Who wants that?

IF your spiritual beliefs include a "heaven" what do you envision it to be? Is it just what you hope, or do you have some kind of confidence based on something "reliable"?

For me, having zero to base this on---my concept would be the ability to traverse the entire Universe and see it all, which would be a good reason to live "forever", lol.

What is the conception of heaven to me? Living inside God's Heart.

[normstad]

Seeing heaven (and hell) are imaginary places, you can make them be whatever you want. The same goes for Valhalla, Atlantis, Camelot, El Dorado, the Garden of Eden, or a plethora of other mythological places.

[Matthew 4:4]

Originally Posted by normstad

Seeing heaven (and hell) are imaginary places, you can make them be whatever you want. The same goes for Valhalla, Atlantis, Camelot, El Dorado, the Garden of Eden, or a plethora of other mythological places.

However, in the Bible I find biblical hell is the grave and as we can see the cemetery is Not an imagined place.
Jesus was in the grave after he died - Acts 2:27 - King James wrongly uses the word hell instead of grave.
Heaven in the Bible is God's home - 1st Kings 8 - and yes we can't see heaven.
The Bible teaches only some go to heaven and they have two (2) jobs to perform. - Rev. 5:9-10; 20:6; 2:10
They are to govern over mankind living on Earth serving as kings and priests with Christ Jesus.
As kings taking care of governmental duties towards people of Earth
As priests taking care of spiritual responsibilities towards people living on Earth.

[L8Gr8Apost8]

Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4

God's grace as God's 'undeserved kindness' towards us I find at www.jw.org.
ALL have treacherous hearts - Jeremiah 17:9
The imperfect heart urges us to do something and after we do it the heart gives us all the reasons why we should not have done what we did in the first place.
So, the imperfect heart is like have a traitor within us.

It's elitist. If all hearts are treacherous then none are "right".

[L8Gr8Apost8]

Originally Posted by mordant

Grace itself means "unmerited favor" and so inherently all grace is undeserved and freely given. It is not a reward because you don't merit it anyway (all have sinned and come short of the glory of god).

So this JW notion that "undeserved grace" (a needless exposition rather like "deadly murder") seems incoherent to me in terms at least of how mainstream creedal Christianity understands the concept of grace. "Right heart condition" sounds to me like wanting grace for the 'correct' motives or reasons but as there is in Christian orthodoxy no way to remotely "deserve" god's grace it seems to be trying to require that you be deserving when you can't be.

Of course I have no skin in this game anymore and feel it is nonsense all the way down, but ... that is how I would have responded to this idea as an evangelical Christian.

They need a reason to otherize non JWs. They have to square away their humanity with Jehovah destroying the vast majority of people. For many of them that means their spouses, children, parents, what friends they used to have.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8

They need a reason to otherize non JWs. They have to square away their humanity with Jehovah destroying the vast majority of people. For many of them that means their spouses, children, parents, what friends they used to have.

Every group otherizes, and the JWs in my view are execrable for many reasons, but I will give them this much: at least they are not into the suffering-porn of eternal perdition. I don't see eternal life as something to be pursued anyway, so it's all good. That DOES leave the shunning thing, which is toxic and perverse and most often quite cruel. And coming from that world, you would know.

But at least in some hypothetical where there really is eternal life, many Christians are actually willing to contemplate spending eternity with the full awareness that many friends and loved ones are suffering as much as they are in bliss, and somehow not have that dilute the rewards of heaven at all. Whereas at least with the JWs it is just unfortunate those folks didn't join the party and are missing out, but there is not some sort of prurient smugness that they are paying for it way out of proportion to any conceivable offense.