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ha.... love this answer. You always have a way with words.
Whenever I hear someone say "eh... eternity...boring..." I just automatically think that person has very, very, very little imagination and they should really spend more time pondering and freeing their mind, allowing it to open up and explore possibilities. Whole worlds will open up when you tap into the imagination. I'm with Mystic. I'm looking forward to, as he put it, "seeing the Awesome Panorama of Infinity..."
....and I find that 'Awesome Panorama of Infinity ' includes Jesus' promise that humble meek people will inherit the Earth.
For the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth, as originally promised to Adam before his downfall: to live forever on Earth, enjoy life forever on Earth.
Enjoyable life on Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter and Isaiah 65:21-25 when: No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24.
Because even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Those few called to Heaven have two (2) jobs to do - see Revelation 5:9-10; 2:10; 20:6; Luke 22:28-30.
* They will work at being kings governing over people living on Earth.
* They will work at being priests taking care of spiritual duties towards people living on Earth.
You know, the US Government and various Agencies spent nearly 25 years investigating and using Remote Viewing (RV). Those guys probably came as close as anyone to what we all want to know about other states of awareness, Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife. That RV all started with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ at SRI doing research into consciousness and developed from there. The whole point I am making is that there IS evidence for exotic states of awareness which extend beyond the normal everyday reality.
Along a similar vein, there are people who use other states of reality to go Out Of Body (OBE) in a very aware and lucid state of mind. Although it has not been scientifically researched as much as RV, it is a similar thing, in that it uses exotic states of consciousness to experience 'reality' somewhere else. The folk who can do OBEs (and there are many who claim to be able to do that) report 'Heaven-like' places (Robert Monroe, William Buhlman, etc), so to me, this seems like a very practical and likely actual solution to our problem about where is or what is Heaven and Hell.
Heaven and Hell extends across religions anyway. Obviously not all have that but many do. So, I wonder if we can all take a leaf out of the research which has been done by SRI and others. Maybe we can move some way towards knowing what Heaven and Hell is really like and then match that up with what is told to us in the Bible and other religious texts.
You know, the US Government and various Agencies spent nearly 25 years investigating and using Remote Viewing (RV). Those guys probably came as close as anyone to what we all want to know about other states of awareness, Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife. That RV all started with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ at SRI doing research into consciousness and developed from there. The whole point I am making is that there IS evidence for exotic states of awareness which extend beyond the normal everyday reality.
Along a similar vein, there are people who use other states of reality to go Out Of Body (OBE) in a very aware and lucid state of mind. Although it has not been scientifically researched as much as RV, it is a similar thing, in that it uses exotic states of consciousness to experience 'reality' somewhere else. The folk who can do OBEs (and there are many who claim to be able to do that) report 'Heaven-like' places (Robert Monroe, William Buhlman, etc), so to me, this seems like a very practical and likely actual solution to our problem about where is or what is Heaven and Hell.
Heaven and Hell extends across religions anyway. Obviously not all have that but many do. So, I wonder if we can all take a leaf out of the research which has been done by SRI and others. Maybe we can move some way towards knowing what Heaven and Hell is really like and then match that up with what is told to us in the Bible and other religious texts.
I have always been perplexed by WHY the rishis who preceded me in antiquity doing meditation into deep states so clearly got a very different experience or understanding of their experiences. I have concluded that the major difference is that I rejected their essential "shut down" of an " aware and lucid mind" as they dropped into deeper altered states.
I retained my conscious awareness and control and exercised it throughout my experience of the altered states. I believe that IS the defining characteristic to achieve clarity about what our Reality actually comprises. You cannot get an accurate understanding under the influence of drugs, mushrooms, or other psychedelic substances and you cannot do so if you shut down your conscious awareness and control either.
....and I find that 'Awesome Panorama of Infinity ' includes Jesus' promise that humble meek people will inherit the Earth.
For the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth, as originally promised to Adam before his downfall: to live forever on Earth, enjoy life forever on Earth.
Enjoyable life on Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter and Isaiah 65:21-25 when: No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24.
Because even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Those few called to Heaven have two (2) jobs to do - see Revelation 5:9-10; 2:10; 20:6; Luke 22:28-30.
* They will work at being kings governing over people living on Earth.
* They will work at being priests taking care of spiritual duties towards people living on Earth.
^ This doesn't quite sound like heaven, it sounds like a continuation of a vendetta.
My concept of heaven is solitary, but I do not know if I would prefer not to experience change. Change is something that some people loathe and embrace. Someone once said, "if you could live forever, you get tired of living." I don't know that it is always true if one is enjoying the changes they are going through.
My concept of heaven involves a physical change in state that is not dependent upon the environment for sustainability.
I have always been perplexed by WHY the rishis who preceded me in antiquity doing meditation into deep states so clearly got a very different experience or understanding of their experiences. I have concluded that the major difference is that I rejected their essential "shut down" of an " aware and lucid mind" as they dropped into deeper altered states.
I retained my conscious awareness and control and exercised it throughout my experience of the altered states. I believe that IS the defining characteristic to achieve clarity about what our Reality actually comprises. You cannot get an accurate understanding under the influence of drugs, mushrooms, or other psychedelic substances and you cannot do so if you shut down your conscious awareness and control either.
Wrong conclusion. What is aware and lucid is the Consciousness - the light of SatChitAnanda. The mind does not have an existence other than as a reflected light of the Consciousness, the Awarenes, and in that reflected light, the ego, the "I"ness is born. This is due to the result of karma, which causes incarnation, the body, the world, the duality, and separation from the Oneness. It is a delusion and that delusion is in the mind, not in the Oneness.. There is no" I" ness. Only one single, partless, eternal Oneness, not your body which decays or your mind which does not exist. This is what the Rishis observed and experienced directly.
Wrong conclusion. What is aware and lucid is the Consciousness - the light of SatChitAnanda. The mind does not have an existence other than as a reflected light of the Consciousness, the Awarenes, and in that reflected light, the ego, the "I"ness is born. This is due to the result of karma, which causes incarnation, the body, the world, the duality, and separation from the Oneness. It is a delusion and that delusion is in the mind, not in the Oneness.. There is no" I" ness. Only one single, partless, eternal Oneness, not your body which decays or your mind which does not exist. This is what the Rishis observed and experienced directly.
Sorry, but I see it differently. What you call the nonexistent ego or mind IS the conscious control that enables us to reason, assess and evaluate the information we receive from our Reality. Abandoning it to experience altered states simply removes that capability from us (just as substances do) and results in inaccurate assessments of experience. That is why I experienced the Oneness without losing my individual sense of Self something the Rishis misinterpreted and lost. I do not know how the Oneness can possibly be comprised of the multitude of individual selves, but it does.
You are correct that the Oneness is all there is, but our mind is a necessary artifice (delayed playback) because of the separation between the macro and the micro (quantum) levels of Reality. It exists only to enable us to function within the physical macro environment as our actual (quanta) Self matures. Bridging the energy level differences and achieving quantum entanglement with the Oneness is what enables us to have access to the Oneness during our macro existence, IMO.
Sorry, but I see it differently. What you call the nonexistent ego or mind IS the conscious control that enables us to reason, assess and evaluate the information we receive from our Reality. Abandoning it to experience altered states simply removes that capability from us (just as substances do) and results in inaccurate assessments of experience. That is why I experienced the Oneness without losing my individual sense of Self something the Rishis misinterpreted and lost. I do not know how the Oneness can possibly be comprised of the multitude of individual selves, but it does.
You are correct that the Oneness is all there is, but our mind is a necessary artifice (delayed playback) because of the separation between the macro and the micro (quantum) levels of Reality. It exists only to enable us to function within the physical macro environment as our actual (quanta) Self matures. Bridging the energy level differences and achieving quantum entanglement with the Oneness is what enables us to have access to the Oneness during our macro existence, IMO.
And...how do you explain all this to "a bear with very little brain" (To quote Winnie the Pooh) ?
There are folk on here who I believe pride themselves as being educated to a high level and like to show that in their arguments. Those posts, which are wonderful and I am sure have meaningful (to some) explanations and which really should exist in the graduate text books of those studying the subject matter.
However, there are far more people with lesser education and understanding who also want to receive the knowledge of the way the Universe works and how it is. If these 'truths' cannot be explained in words of one or two syllables then these poor folk (including me) will not be able to understand and so be excluded from the knowledge available. That excludes many people, which is perpetuating the environment of the priests of old times who just wanted power and status.
Great educators are able to explain things in simple terms. No?
In the movie Defending Your Life, Albert Brooks dies and goes to a celestial waiting room where he must argue for his admittance to heaven or else be reincarnated.
Anyways one of the nice things about being in this waiting room is that you can eat whatever you want without gaining weight. That would be good enough for me.
However, there are far more people with lesser education and understanding who also want to receive the knowledge of the way the Universe works and how it is. If these 'truths' cannot be explained in words of one or two syllables then these poor folk (including me) will not be able to understand and so be excluded from the knowledge available. That excludes many people, which is perpetuating the environment of the priests of old times who just wanted power and status.
I call this the "common man test" and it is a test that has to be passed for any ideology to gain widespread purchase.
Ironically as an atheist I have often condescended to by theists who say I can't possibly understand all the subtle nuance of their theology (as they generally assume I never was a theist and never had any theological training, both of which happen to be bad assumptions in my case).
Where Christianity for example succeeds with "ordinary" people is that it has a level on which one simply does what one is commanded and one doesn't have to question or think at all if you don't wish to. You are offered ultimate resolution and transcendence of the human condition, if not in this life, then in the next one. This provides structure and a sense of belonging / identity (and, for the sufficiently lucky, a sense of protection / refuge / hope).
But as the many threads in the Christianity forum with people shooting at each other with their "gospel guns" proves, Christianity has many factions who see important matters very differently, each utterly convinced that their particular views are self-evidently correct. The "common man" gets by with it by just not being sufficiently aware of these conflicts to let it trouble them. They assume they are in the "correct" compartment of Christianity because it is familiar and "feels right".
I am sure it works similarly in other faiths. One goes to one's pastor or imam or priest or guru or whatever for authoritative answers to questions that don't probe very deeply. So any religious abstraction I'm aware of passes the "common man test" only at a certain uncritical level. The abstraction leaks too much to be accessible to anyone truly pondering it as a total system, unless they have a good deal of training and are widely-read. Even then it won't necessarily hold together unless you uncritically accept certain large assumptions, such as, that the holy book is inerrant (for some given value of "inerrant" anyway), that it is to be taken with a certain literalist (or other) bias, that it is approached with particular interpretational system and not another. Much of theological training is taken up with trying to explain the logical holes and conflicts in the system that reveal themselves when you actually examine it systematically.
So while some religious systems are arguably simpler relative to others, I think those who want to understand "how the universe works" without lots of effort invested in study will still have to content themselves with the dilute version delivered from pulpits in their favorite place of worship, and hope for the best.
By the way it is not just an issue for "simple" people, it is an issue for very smart people who want to just live and enjoy their lives without it being some sort of baroque exercise in splitting hairs. Everyone really intuits what any experienced software developer will tell you: the most elegant and perfect designs are also simple ones. The more complicated the solution, the harder it is to hold it in your mind as you work with it and the more it represents an abstraction that's likely to hold exceptions and conflicts, and therefore leak and have errors. Religion is like a very ambitious piece of software written by a committee using rules of thumb and trial and error. Atheism works for me not because I'm allegedly smart but because it's a simple yes or no question on a very narrow topic. It has simplified my life like Occam's Razor on steroids.
Sorry, but I see it differently. What you call the nonexistent ego or mind IS the conscious control that enables us to reason, assess and evaluate the information we receive from our Reality. Abandoning it to experience altered states simply removes that capability from us (just as substances do) and results in inaccurate assessments of experience. That is why I experienced the Oneness without losing my individual sense of Self something the Rishis misinterpreted and lost. I do not know how the Oneness can possibly be comprised of the multitude of individual selves, but it does.
You are correct that the Oneness is all there is, but our mind is a necessary artifice (delayed playback) because of the separation between the macro and the micro (quantum) levels of Reality. It exists only to enable us to function within the physical macro environment as our actual (quanta) Self matures. Bridging the energy level differences and achieving quantum entanglement with the Oneness is what enables us to have access to the Oneness during our macro existence, IMO.
You believe in Dualism. Dualism has no Oneness, you are always separate, the worshipper and the worshipped, the This and the That, the subject and the object.
Oneness is only one, Subject. The object, and the world, resolve into the One Subject.
There is nothing wrong with either path, path of knowledge, or Advaita, and the path of worship or Bhakti. They all lead to Divinity. And one can be both or either at one time or another.
It is all good. No need to diminish the Rishis. They knew.
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You always have a way with words.
I have always been perplexed by WHY the rishis who preceded me in antiquity doing meditation into deep states so clearly got a very different experience or understanding of their experiences. I have concluded that the major difference is that I rejected their essential "shut down" of an " aware and lucid mind" as they dropped into deeper altered states. 
