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How would following Buddha’s 8 fold path help you resolve this, for your own peace of mind, not for anyone else?
I can share how following Advaita principles help me.
I think that one has to keep in mind that plotting a path is a set of personal decisions where you have to weigh what your decisions cost you versus what your decisions gain you. Very little in life is 'free'.
The purpose of this thread is one thing only -- for religionists, including me (a Buddhist) to bring up some principle found in the teachings and to discuss their validity. The thread is NOT about proving anything in your scriptures as being true or false. It is only to discuss various principles
I'll get us started.
Principle:
1. Dukkha: Suffering exists: Life is suffering. Suffering is almost universal (although that doesn't mean that one suffers all the time). Suffering can be caused by loss, sickness, pain, failure, and the impermanence of pleasure.
2. Samudaya: There is a cause of suffering -- attachment to things one likes/loves, all of which will eventually change or end, thus causing craving for various pleasures or lack of suffering.
3. Nirodha: These attachments can be overcome, although some only with Nibbana.
4. Magga: There is a path to accomplish this -- the Eightfold Path.
This principle is about Buddhism. A principle you might post may be christian or Hindu, etc.
Since I am not a "religionist," I'm not sure my comments are included among the invited, but if okay, I'd just offer my initial quick thoughts that first came to mind when I read your OP. An interesting one...
First, I wonder what is meant by this statement that "suffering is almost universal." I can't think of an example where suffering is not part of the human experience at least at some point of the human experience. Then you go on to post other comments that suggest maybe you agree that some suffering is inevitable for all people.
Secondly, I have always had a much greater respect for Buddhism as compared to the other religions, because of this very decidedly different way of thinking about all that religion is about one way or another.
Lastly, are you not interested in principles not necessarily religious in nature? If yes, why did you ask for only those put forth in religious teachings?
I think there is a great deal of suffering during life. Some of it health related. Relationship related. Success/failure related. And yes, it's often because we become attached to the status quo. And the suddenly the status quo isn't. Personally, I'm unconvinced re nibanna. Maybe there is such a thing. I know that I once asked a group of 4 Buddhist monks if they expected to reach nibanna in their current life and they all said not even close. But even if nibanna does not exist, it doesn't mean that we can't use some Buddhist principles -- and principles and teachings from other religions -- to lessen suffering. Eliminating it...not so sure...maybe some. Certainly the Eightfold Path (right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi) can help in that regard.
I'll say this: Buddhism makes infinite more sense to me than religions that peddle supernatural foolishness as their main attraction. Buddhism is the ultimate "Power of Positive Thinking" philosophy and at its core is the idea that no matter our circumstance eg old, crippled, poor, blind, ravaged by cancer, ALS and a few other slow-killing diseases, we can overcome all the pain they inflict with the power of our minds. Wonderful stuff if one has the strength of will to actually do it.
Since I am not a "religionist," I'm not sure my comments are included among the invited, but if okay, I'd just offer my initial quick thoughts that first came to mind when I read your OP. An interesting one...
First, I wonder what is meant by this statement that "suffering is almost universal." I can't think of an example where suffering is not part of the human experience at least at some point of the human experience. Then you go on to post other comments that suggest maybe you agree that some suffering is inevitable for all people.
Secondly, I have always had a much greater respect for Buddhism as compared to the other religions, because of this very decidedly different way of thinking about all that religion is about one way or another.
Lastly, are you not interested in principles not necessarily religious in nature? If yes, why did you ask for only those put forth in religious teachings?
Of course you are welcome in the thread.
The only reason I said that suffering is "almost universal" is because I don't want to speak for everyone. I do think Buddhism dwells a bit too heavily on suffering. Many go through life with little suffering or suffering only very occasionally. It depends, I guess, on how you define suffering.
Well, the forum category is "religion" and spirituality, so it seemed logical to discuss principles based on religion.
I'll say this: Buddhism makes infinite more sense to me than religions that peddle supernatural foolishness as their main attraction. Buddhism is the ultimate "Power of Positive Thinking" philosophy and at its core is the idea that no matter our circumstance eg old, crippled, poor, blind, ravaged by cancer, ALS and a few other slow-killing diseases, we can overcome all the pain they inflict with the power of our minds. Wonderful stuff if one has the strength of will to actually do it.
Yesterday the results came back from a biopsy and suddenly a great deal of recent suffering evaporated when I saw the word "benign". But it was the first real taste I have had about thinking about the real possibility of dying of something directly that would have a time figure on it. That was suffering.
What I bolded in your post is where I differ from standard Buddhist teaching. Can one lesson suffering. In many, many cases yes. Can you eliminate all suffering. I doubt it very much. But why not eliminate all you can?
Interesting that you brought up the power of positive thinking concept. I used to really enjoy Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller, but it had never occurred to me that their messages were, to a degree, a similar message. Thanks for making me think about that.
I think there is a great deal of suffering during life. Some of it health related. Relationship related. Success/failure related. And yes, it's often because we become attached to the status quo. And the suddenly the status quo isn't. Personally, I'm unconvinced re nibanna. Maybe there is such a thing. I know that I once asked a group of 4 Buddhist monks if they expected to reach nibanna in their current life and they all said not even close. But even if nibanna does not exist, it doesn't mean that we can't use some Buddhist principles -- and principles and teachings from other religions -- to lessen suffering. Eliminating it...not so sure...maybe some. Certainly the Eightfold Path (right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi) can help in that regard.
According to the Buddhist publication, Tricycle: "The Pali word nibbana (nirvana in Sanskrit) was first used by the Buddha to describe the highest state of profound well-being a human is capable of attaining. The mind awakens from delusion, is liberated from bondage, is cleansed of all its defilements, becomes entirely at peace, experiences the complete cessation of suffering, and is no longer reborn."
I would love to attain the state of being described above. I figure if I am re-incarnated a few more thousands of times, I might finally be able to point my feet in the direction of the Eightfold Path. And then - who knows? Certainly not me. I don't know if I have ever met an enlightened person. I have met two or possibly three people who seemed to exist in a state of being that seemed close to enlightenment. All were Buddhist monks/teachers.
"But even if nibanna does not exist, it doesn't mean that we can't use some Buddhist principles -- and principles and teachings from other religions -- to lessen suffering."
According to the Buddhist publication, Tricycle: "The Pali word nibbana (nirvana in Sanskrit) was first used by the Buddha to describe the highest state of profound well-being a human is capable of attaining. The mind awakens from delusion, is liberated from bondage, is cleansed of all its defilements, becomes entirely at peace, experiences the complete cessation of suffering, and is no longer reborn."
I would love to attain the state of being described above. I figure if I am re-incarnated a few more thousands of times, I might finally be able to point my feet in the direction of the Eightfold Path. And then - who knows? Certainly not me. I don't know if I have ever met an enlightened person. I have met two or possibly three people who seemed to exist in a state of being that seemed close to enlightenment. All were Buddhist monks/teachers.
"But even if nibanna does not exist, it doesn't mean that we can't use some Buddhist principles -- and principles and teachings from other religions -- to lessen suffering."
This
I couldn't agree more.
Thank you.
I see nibanna as a unrealistic goal, but it's a nice thought. Sometimes even unrealistic goals are worth working toward.
According to the Buddhist publication, Tricycle: "The Pali word nibbana (nirvana in Sanskrit) was first used by the Buddha to describe the highest state of profound well-being a human is capable of attaining. The mind awakens from delusion, is liberated from bondage, is cleansed of all its defilements, becomes entirely at peace, experiences the complete cessation of suffering, and is no longer reborn."
I would love to attain the state of being described above. I figure if I am re-incarnated a few more thousands of times, I might finally be able to point my feet in the direction of the Eightfold Path. And then - who knows? Certainly not me. I don't know if I have ever met an enlightened person. I have met two or possibly three people who seemed to exist in a state of being that seemed close to enlightenment. All were Buddhist monks/teachers.
"But even if nibanna does not exist, it doesn't mean that we can't use some Buddhist principles -- and principles and teachings from other religions -- to lessen suffering."
This
I couldn't agree more.
The meaning for Nirvana
You can see how much context matters in the meaning of nirvana. I believe the meaning that comes closest to what Buddha was teaching is "perfect calm, repose, or happiness."
While the 8 fold path seems formidable I think it helps to think that these are instructions for his monks who have renounced all material property and bonds and only live on alms. And I believe many monks do reach that state.
The instructions can be, and I believe should be, adapted to those of us who still have to transact with the world we are given, which is most of us. It is a matter of attitude, simplifying life, and our attitude towards possessions, both material and human, practice kindness to self and others, to attain the kind of nirvana that brings "perfect calm, repose, or happiness". I tis not about absolute annihilation but happiness.
Dalai Llama says the purpose of life is to create happiness. If you cannot do that at least do not cause misery, and lessen suffering.
I'll say this: Buddhism makes infinite more sense to me than religions that peddle supernatural foolishness as their main attraction. Buddhism is the ultimate "Power of Positive Thinking" philosophy and at its core is the idea that no matter our circumstance eg old, crippled, poor, blind, ravaged by cancer, ALS and a few other slow-killing diseases, we can overcome all the pain they inflict with the power of our minds. Wonderful stuff if one has the strength of will to actually do it.
no, it is not through "power of our minds" nor is it "overcoming" or "doing"
those imply putting forth effort, willpower, force, strength
whereas acceptance is not those at all.
accepting what is, is NOT power, it is NOT overcoming, it is NOT doing, it is NOT effort or strength.
rather it is a stillness, a calm.
above all it is NOT thinking. rather, it entails stilling the thoughts, quieting the mind, stopping the thoughts, letting thoughts float on by.
"not doing" and "not thinking" do not require putting forth effort. they are an absence. a cessation.
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