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Old 05-19-2022, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,238 posts, read 23,866,643 times
Reputation: 32605

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Of course. Because Tzaph explained what you did not understand, which you would have if you have ever read Buddha's teachings.
No. Because I have a different viewpoint about it. As each person may.

You have a right to your viewpoints about Buddhism (by the way, did you book that flight to Napa yet?).
Tzaph has a right to her viewpoints about Buddhism, based (it seems) exclusively on reading a few books.

It's doubtful that anything that you say, based on your tainted view of Buddhism (that has nothing to do with Theravada Buddhism) is going to modify the path I have chosen based on my experiences in Thailand, at temples, discussing Buddhism with Thai Theravada Buddhists (including monks). I'm not saying I'm right about everything regarding Theravada Buddhism, but I have determined my path.

If I want to learn about Christianity, I'm not going to go and look for a teacher that's a Hindu.
If I want to learn about Theravada Buddhism, I'm not going to go and look for a teacher that's a Hindu.
And I'm certainly not going to go to an 'all woo under one roof'ist.
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Old 05-19-2022, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,238 posts, read 23,866,643 times
Reputation: 32605
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
What you think you are Buddha now, that we all have to contemplate your ramblings? Your ego is your first problem why you are unable to understand Buddhism.

I have done that California thing and found some very tasty wines. I can recommend a few.
Okay...and what was my point? I'll bet you can't figure it out.
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Old 05-19-2022, 09:47 AM
 
15,825 posts, read 6,887,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No. Because I have a different viewpoint about it. As each person may.

You have a right to your viewpoints about Buddhism (by the way, did you book that flight to Napa yet?).
Tzaph has a right to her viewpoints about Buddhism, based (it seems) exclusively on reading a few books.

It's doubtful that anything that you say, based on your tainted view of Buddhism (that has nothing to do with Theravada Buddhism) is going to modify the path I have chosen based on my experiences in Thailand, at temples, discussing Buddhism with Thai Theravada Buddhists (including monks). I'm not saying I'm right about everything regarding Theravada Buddhism, but I have determined my path.

If I want to learn about Christianity, I'm not going to go and look for a teacher that's a Hindu.
If I want to learn about Theravada Buddhism, I'm not going to go and look for a teacher that's a Hindu.
And I'm certainly not going to go to an 'all woo under one roof'ist.

You may first want to look within yourself and what drives you before learning anything about any religion. Until you do that no religion will help.
You may want to read some books in the meantime.
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Old 05-19-2022, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,238 posts, read 23,866,643 times
Reputation: 32605
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
No , I said American Buddhists LIKE YOU cannot follow the 8 fold path. There are man Americans who actually practice what Buddha taught. Like Tzap.
Tzap is not a Buddhist. I'm not going to Tzap to understand a religion/philosophy that she thinks is another path to god, when Theravada Buddhism specifically teaches that it's not.

You and Tzap have an egotistical view of the Eightfold Path. You have the idea that you are perfection and you can conquer all and thus easily eliminate suffering. Let's take a look at the eightfold path:


(1) correct view, an accurate understanding of the nature of things, specifically the Four Noble Truths
(2) correct intention, avoiding thoughts of attachment, hatred, and harmful intent
(3) correct speech, refraining from verbal misdeeds such as lying, divisive speech, harsh speech, and senseless speech
(4) correct action, refraining from physical misdeeds such as killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct
(5) correct livelihood, avoiding trades that directly or indirectly harm others, such as selling slaves, weapons, animals for slaughter, intoxicants, or poisons
(6) correct effort, abandoning negative states of mind that have already arisen, preventing negative states that have yet to arise, and sustaining positive states that have already arisen
(7) correct mindfulness, awareness of body, feelings, thought, and phenomena (the constituents of the existing world)
(8) correct concentration, single-mindedness.

No person who has any humility at all is going to think that they are so perfect that they can, with perfection, meet all 8 of those standards, thus eliminating all suffering. I have related before a discussion that I had with four Thai Theravada monks after a chanting/meditation session one evening. We would always chat for a while after those sessions, and this particular evening I asked, "Will any of you reach nibanna at the end of this lifetime?" They all thought that was rather funny. And each said that no, they would not achieve nibanna in their current life, or probably not in numerous lives thereafter. Hence, some degree of suffering will continue. I have never known a single person that always has correct view, correct intention, correct speech, correct action, correct livelihood, correct effort, correct mindfulness, and correct concentration anywhere near all the time.

For almost any person on the planet, the Eightfold Path will help reduce suffering. For some it will reduce suffering a little, for others a moderate amount, for still others a lot. However, the number of people who will be able to eliminate all suffering for themselves is -- borrowing from christinaity -- 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle' than for someone to perfectly follow the eightfold path and eliminate all suffering in their current lifetime. I don't know anyone who has reached that level of what I will call intellectual spiritual competence. And you and Tzap thinking you have is the perfect indication that you have not.
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Old 05-19-2022, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,238 posts, read 23,866,643 times
Reputation: 32605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
many paths of religion and spirituality make the simple distinction between "pain" and "suffering."
there is no "ambiguity" when the simple difference is understood and recognized.

it is powerful, when put into practice.

the discussion of pain and suffering is in the context of paths of religion and spirituality, because that is the forum this topic resides in. however the powerful distinction between pain and suffering is also recognized as useful and effective in a secular framework, for improving our health and well-being. as noted in this Psychology Today article on chronic pain, "Pain Is Inevitable; Suffering Is Optional - When it comes to how we respond to physical and emotional pain, we have a choice"
It's a nice cliche.
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Old 05-19-2022, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,238 posts, read 23,866,643 times
Reputation: 32605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
As I said, some egos can not recognize the ambiguity because they are focused on their spiritual path instead of how others use the word.

You are just repeating the problem I have just explained.



As I said, some people are using the word 'suffering' to mean two different but related things, the actual experience of suffering, and whether one allows it to control your life or not.
I think you're on the right track here, but I would change that last phrase (bolded) to 'and whether one allows it to influence your life or not'.

And I'll give you want I think is a perfect example: Franklin Roosevelt. I think I've read every modern biography about him. There is a man who despite being seemingly struck down with polio (if it was actually polio) went on to elected governor and president, the former elected 4 times. Did that mean that he did not suffer from his polio. Not at all.
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Old 05-19-2022, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,593 posts, read 4,879,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I think you're on the right track here, but I would change that last phrase (bolded) to 'and whether one allows it to influence your life or not'.

And I'll give you want I think is a perfect example: Franklin Roosevelt. I think I've read every modern biography about him. There is a man who despite being seemingly struck down with polio (if it was actually polio) went on to elected governor and president, the former elected 4 times. Did that mean that he did not suffer from his polio. Not at all.
Yes, I was thinking of my Grandfather when I wrote the original. Perhaps I should have said 'influence your life in a negative way or not'.
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Old 05-19-2022, 10:34 AM
 
21,898 posts, read 19,046,725 times
Reputation: 18026
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
It's a nice cliche.
OK, so that is where you are holding.

the view expressed in post above dismisses not only the the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, but also modern psychology
as "just a cliche"
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Old 05-19-2022, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,238 posts, read 23,866,643 times
Reputation: 32605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
OK, so that is where you are holding.

the view expressed in post above dismisses not only the the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, but also modern psychology
as "just a cliche"
The Dalai Lama has a path. A very unique path. He is not an ordinary person. And he is not me. He is not you. But since you want to mention the Dalai Lama, I'll also point out that he has said that a person could not believe in a single, personal, Western form of God and also be a Buddhist.

You have a path. It is not the same path as the Dalai Lama, or mine, or any other posters.
I have a path. It is not the same path as the Dalai Lam, or yours, or any other posters.

Buddhism is not a commandments style religion. Each person needs to think through is own personal relationship with, for example, the Eightfold Path.
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Old 05-19-2022, 11:42 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,524,770 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
OK, so that is where you are holding.

the view expressed in post above dismisses not only the the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, but also modern psychology
as "just a cliche"
For most of us mere mortals, it is not a question of how to avoid suffering but how to deal with the inevitability of suffering. Maybe some reading beyond your preferred sources are worth considering just a bit?

"I do not like to suffer, and I do not like for others to suffer. I avoid unnecessary suffering as much as possible, and as a therapist I try to help people to see and stop the unintentional, accidental things they do that add unnecessary suffering to their life. To me, that is one of the most realistic benefits of therapy, and I am always happy when I can help with that.

If I’m honest, though, when I first approached training to be a therapist I was possessed by the fantasy that therapy could create a suffering-free and, if I stay honest, perfected life. I remember reading a quote by Sigmund Freud in which he said the goal of analysis was to help the person overcome “neurotic misery” so they can deal with “normal human unhappiness,” and I wondered, “Why is Freud so pessimistic?” I had the fantasy that therapy could make us somehow super-human, able to transcend “normal human unhappiness”—the aches, pains, and anxieties that come with living. Over time, I have come to see that (1) I was somewhat deluded, and (2) I am not the only one who suffers under that fantasy."

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/lea...-worse-0927175
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