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It is human vanity that believes ANYTHING we do could in any way GLORIFY God!!! His glory is infinite! Jesus came to CLARIFY God who was misunderstood and misinterpreted by our ancient ancestors reading the OT and Moses.
How do you know that those who read the Torah and Moses misunderstood G-d? That may be your belief and opinion, but it's not fact. Christianity is not the only path to G-d, however much you state it.
Yes. I understand that. That's why I mentioned the tetragrammaton. The point in all of this is that Abraham worshiped the Creator God. The one written about in Genesis 1, however you wish to call him.
One could say that he was interested in glorifying God, who appeared to him and called him. That's why he built an altar as soon as he got to Cana -- right in front of all the Canaanites, worshiping their gods.
And historically, God was only God of the Jews -- of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He was not the God of the other nations.
no, that is not correct.
the Creator was recognized as the Creator of all people and everything.
that's why Abraham promoted monotheism to everyone everywhere.
Judaism to this day, then and now, from the time of Abraham 4,000+ years ago, right up to this very day, still recognizes that God is accessible to everyone everywhere. And recognizes that God has NEVER been limited to or exclusive to a single group of people, a single nation, or a single religion. EVER. That's why in Judaism there is no need to proselytize, and there is no desire to seek converts.
For instance when the Temple stood, it was for everyone.
"When the Temple stood, G‑d was real to everyone. To find Him, you just traveled to Jerusalem and connected to Him at His Temple. The Temple was a symbol of G‑d: majestic, grand and awe-inspiring, because G‑d is majestic, grand and awe-inspiring. It was a shrine to G‑d and all the things that “G‑d” means: responsibility, morality, ethics, love, compassion, humility. It was a place where one found spirituality: the kohanim silently serving in awe of G‑d beyond words, the Levites singing boisterous songs of love for G‑d, the pilgrims fine-tuning their relationship with G‑d, the sights, the sounds. You didn’t have to be Jewish to go to the Temple; kings and peasants from every country and culture traveled long distances just to experience it all. "
[from Chabad article "What was the Holy Temple"]
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-10-2022 at 09:36 PM..
How do you know that those who read the Torah and Moses misunderstood G-d? That may be your belief and opinion, but it's not fact. Christianity is not the only path to G-d, however much you state it.
I can't speak for mystic. I can speak to my experience with him.
It was my experience, if you question him more deeply you will see he agrees with you.
He uses "Jesus" more like a focal point than the only true path to me. Kind of like addition. Jesus is like using the example of 2+2= 4 =10+-6. If you follow the rules of that specific example, you can learn addition. Jesus is like the specific example. He is not the "rules". He is a demonstration of the rules.
2+2 doesn't look like 10+-6. we can do an infinite number of iterations. that all end in the same place.
They are the exact same result. Buddha looked like he said "remove the four" and process the 2+2=10+-6=((10^3)*20)/5000. We don't need the 4. Or whatever he said.
no, that is not correct.
the Creator was recognized as the Creator of all people and everything.
that's why Abraham promoted monotheism to everyone everywhere.
Yes. Abraham recognized Him as Creator God and he proclaimed his name to everyone. Of course, not everyone believed in him.
Quote:
Judaism to this day, then and now, from the time of Abraham 4,000+ years ago, right up to this very day, still recognizes that God is accessible to everyone everywhere. And recognizes that God has NEVER been limited to or exclusive to a single group of people, a single nation, or a single religion. EVER. That's why in Judaism there is no need to proselytize, and there is no desire to seek converts.
For instance when the Temple stood, it was for everyone.
"When the Temple stood, G‑d was real to everyone. To find Him, you just traveled to Jerusalem and connected to Him at His Temple. The Temple was a symbol of G‑d: majestic, grand and awe-inspiring, because G‑d is majestic, grand and awe-inspiring. It was a shrine to G‑d and all the things that “G‑d” means: responsibility, morality, ethics, love, compassion, humility. It was a place where one found spirituality: the kohanim silently serving in awe of G‑d beyond words, the Levites singing boisterous songs of love for G‑d, the pilgrims fine-tuning their relationship with G‑d, the sights, the sounds. You didn’t have to be Jewish to go to the Temple; kings and peasants from every country and culture traveled long distances just to experience it all. "
[from Chabad article "What was the Holy Temple"]
Have you read Romans? Do you understand that the people could see God but they turned instead to created things?
That the Jews were God's chosen people? They had the oracles of God, yet they did not recognize him, either?
Do you mean to suggest that the Hittites, Philistines, Amorites, etc...etc....all worshiped God?
How did people learn the religion and its rules without a book?
Oral tradition. Long before anybody wrote on paper, people would create songs in order to learn, repeat, and remember important events and things. Even when writing began on stone tablets and such, nobody was writing stories. Mostly they were used for taking a census or for a major proclamation.
The idea of writing everything down didn't come about until the invention of parchment paper, which was relatively cheap and common, and it was a lot easier than carving in stone.
The oral tradition of making songs that people learned over the ages, is the primary way that people learned things and passed them down from generation to generation, before writing was practical.
Of course, this is a great way to wind up with "tall tales" as the songs get more colorful and more dramatic over time. It is tempting to take a song that is originally straightforward and over time it would be embellished and modified to be more exciting, colorful, and entertaining. So over time, there would be less historical accuracy and more poetic license.
Take the Greek Illiad and Odessy written by Homer. All he did was write down the songs being sung at the time. Did the Greeks really send a thousand ships to attack Troy? It was probably a much smaller number that grew over time. Did the Trojan War really take 10 years? It could have been a shorter time from but grew over time.
How did people learn the religion and its rules without a book?
There was no "book". There were lots and lots of individual scrolls.
Go read up on the Dead Sea Scrolls and what was found.
Very few people could read or write (less than 2% of the world could read/write during the time of Christ) so really what good would a "book" do ? Everything was oral and passed down from generation to generation.
the Prophet Muhammad (founder of Islam) lived about 1,600 years ago
JC lived around 2,000 years ago
Moses received the Torah for the Jewish people around 3,300 years ago.
Abraham lived around 4,000 years ago
Of those three religions, Judaism is the oldest.
Crstnty came later, is a spin-off of Judaism, draws from and includes material from Judaism, with more stuff added.
Islam came even later, is a spin-off of both Judaism and Crstnty, draws from and includes material from both Judaism and Crstnty, with more stuff added.
Prophet Muhammad appeared 400 years after JC.
JC appeared 1,300 years after Moses received the Torah
According to timeline, posted above, Judaism was indeed revealed way after Abraham.
According to Islam, Allah was revealed to Abraham way before Moses.
According to all, Judaism and Islam worship same god.
That Prophet Muhammad lived later than Moses, does not change the deity.
That said, I don't really care. Allah/YHWH was a freshly developed egregore, taking over multiple people and depowering egregores, that existed before him, as gods.
Only reason I even got involved into all this Islam discussion is because OP is Muslim and I sort of pitched it to him.
According to timeline, posted above, Judaism was indeed revealed way after Abraham. According to Islam, Allah was revealed to Abraham way before Moses. According to all, Judaism and Islam worship same god. That Prophet Muhammad lived later than Moses, does not change the deity. That said, I don't really care. Allah/YHWH was a freshly developed egregore, taking over multiple people and depowering egregores, that existed before him, as gods. Only reason I even got involved into all this Islam discussion is because OP is Muslim and I sort of pitched it to him.
the Source of all that is, is not an "egregore."
"egregores" are a by-product of mass thought.
humans -----> think thoughts----> which produce "egregores" (a collective thought)
however humans don't produce Source. it is the other way around.
Source-----> produces humans. Not the other way around. Humans don't produce the Source of all that is.
Humans are a by-product of Source.
Source "thinks" humans into existence. Humans "think" egregores into existence.
However humans do not "think" Source into existence.
This is outside the scope of this thread, but commenting because it is related, and of interest.
To put it another way, there is a difference between Divinity and the occult. They are not the same.
occult is pursued by self, and rooted in ego. Divinity is recognized by Self and is beyond ego.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-11-2022 at 11:20 PM..
I can't speak for mystic. I can speak to my experience with him.
It was my experience, if you question him more deeply you will see he agrees with you.
He uses "Jesus" more like a focal point than the only true path to me. Kind of like addition. Jesus is like using the example of 2+2= 4 =10+-6. If you follow the rules of that specific example, you can learn addition. Jesus is like the specific example. He is not the "rules". He is a demonstration of the rules.
2+2 doesn't look like 10+-6. we can do an infinite number of iterations. that all end in the same place.
They are the exact same result. Buddha looked like he said "remove the four" and process the 2+2=10+-6=((10^3)*20)/5000. We don't need the 4. Or whatever he said.
To me anyway, that's what I get out of mystic.
Are you kidding? Mystic continually denigrates our "primitive and barbaric ancestors" (i.e. the Jews') understanding of G-d and imputes that Jesus is the only avenue to understanding and joining with the Almighty. He may post in milder terms in the R&S threads, but in the Christianity Forum, he's VERY plain:
From the Faith and Works thread, Post #44: "Jesus IS G-d".
From the What is the Gospel thread, Post #996: "The only Word of G-d we have is Jesus...HE is the Way."
The context has nothing to do with rules; rather, the statement is that Jesus is the ONLY way.
We don't agree in the least, since I, as a Jew, believe that there are many ways to G-d. Jesus is ONE way, but there are many.
Are you kidding? Mystic continually denigrates our "primitive and barbaric ancestors" (i.e. the Jews') understanding of G-d and imputes that Jesus is the only avenue to understanding and joining with the Almighty. He may post in milder terms in the R&S threads, but in the Christianity Forum, he's VERY plain:
From the Faith and Works thread, Post #44: "Jesus IS G-d".
From the What is the Gospel thread, Post #996: "The only Word of G-d we have is Jesus...HE is the Way."
The context has nothing to do with rules; rather, the statement is that Jesus is the ONLY way.
We don't agree in the least, since I, as a Jew, believe that there are many ways to G-d. Jesus is ONE way, but there are many.
yeah, I hear ya. You have some valid points for sure. The words "primitive" and "barbaric" have negative connotations. But if we just take the words without the negative sign (only its magnitude so to speak), he is right. Much like childbirth was/is primitive and barbaric, so is the bible god as taught by some people.
Yeah, I agree with you again. There are many ways to "god". And so does mystic to me. Like there are many ways to learn addition. But they have end in the same place or they are not reliable. Like I said, I can only speak to my experience with him. I questioned him more deeply and when push came to shove he was more like Jesus represented "addition".
And there is only a limited set of ways to use the rules of addition. It doesn't matter what way you learned them. Or what you call it. As rose is still a rose even if we call it a pigeon kind of thing.
I don't agree with some of his stuff either. Personally, I kind of like how the Jewish god is presented. well, as far as a belief in something that is not real goes anyway.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 06-12-2022 at 11:10 AM..
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