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I repped you recently in another forum, so I owe you one for this.
You're welcome! I became interested in this when I was reading about Otzi (the "iceman"). He would have lived/died around 3100-3300 BCE. So he would have been I believe the pre-religion Ruth was mentioning. Then in the centuries after, the PIE language groups were moving out from (modern day) Russia...there seems to be a lot more information about those. And I was just really taken in. It is all fascinating.
Animism (from Latin: anima, 'breath, spirit, life')[1][2] is the belief that objects, places, and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence.[3][4][5][6] Potentially, animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, weather systems, human handiwork, and perhaps even words—as animated and alive. Animism is used in the anthropology of religion, as a term for the belief system of many Indigenous peoples,[7] especially in contrast to the relatively more recent development of organised religions.[8] Animism focuses on the metaphysical universe, with specific focus on the concept of the immaterial soul.[9] Although each culture has their own mythologies and rituals, animism is said to describe the most common, foundational thread of indigenous peoples' "spiritual" or "supernatural" perspectives. The animistic perspective is so widely held and inherent to most indigenous peoples, that they often do not even have a word in their languages that corresponds to "animism" (or even "religion");[10] the term is an anthropological construct. Largely due to such ethnolinguistic and cultural discrepancies, opinions differ on whether animism refers to an ancestral mode of experience common to indigenous peoples around the world, or to a full-fledged religion in its own right. The currently accepted definition of animism was only developed in the late 19th century (1871) by Sir Edward Tylor. It is "one of anthropology's earliest concepts, if not the first".[11] Animism encompasses the beliefs that all material phenomena have agency, that there exists no categorical distinction between the spiritual and physical (or material) world, and that soul, spirit, or sentience exists not only in humans, but also in other animals, plants, rocks, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment: water sprites, vegetation deities, tree spirits, etc. Animism may further attribute a life force to abstract concepts such as words, true names, or metaphors in mythology. Some members of the non-tribal world also consider themselves animists (such as author Daniel Quinn, sculptor Lawson Oyekan, and many contemporary Pagans).[12]
Did that answer your question? From that on, you have "mother earth" and "father sky" and what not. Hinduism included.
In my system of beliefs, it is very similar to:
Everything in existence is conscious. It is conscious as its function only. On the nature side, it is conscious, as it function, on the intelligent side - it is conscious that it is conscious.
So...basically what you're saing is that before the earth/sky gods there was basically animism? Thank you! And I can't thank you enough for all this information. Wow, you really took some time here, I appreciate it.
I am finding PIE group beliefs easier to research, the pre-PIEs are more of a mystery.
I don't know if you read any of Jean Auel's Earth's Children series, but her prehistoric cultures' Earth Mother religion is based in part on actual archeological findings from what is now Ukraine that date back to the last ice age. There are mammoth-bone carvings of pregnant, large-breasted woman, like a fertility goddess of some kind. In her fictional religion, women are revered because they have the power to give life. The Earth itself is seen as the Mother because it provides all that is needed for life.
It resonated enough that one might almost imagine that Auel was stirred by some ancient ancestral whispers.
I did, and I adored Clan of the Cave Bear. The rest, not as many. I have read Clan probably ten times, maybe eleven...I can't even remember anymore.
That was I think 30,000 BCE.
One thing (which was addressed in Auel's books as a hypothetical) was when people realized men had something to do with pregnancy. Opinions differ WILDLY on this, and I mean wildly. Pregnancy would not automatically be equated to sex because a woman doesn't know she's pregnant until possibly a month or more after, even if she would be watching the moon's cycles and/or other women's cycles. And of course, a woman can have sex for months or longer and not get pregnant...then suddenly she is.
It is my opinion based on my reading (because I love prehistory and history) that when men realized they were part of the procreation process, that's when "creation" male deities began to exist, including one top of the heirarchy, a Father God...but...I don't know *when* that would have happened. I believe that makes a difference.
As far as just a goddess, I am not sure I agree with Auel on that one. Granted she started her research 40+ years ago and a lot has been discovered since then (I am still astounded by her research), but I can't see why there wouldn't be both male and female gods from the beginning, since spirits would have overseen everything, not just creation. Weather...sickness...etc.
And also because of animism...I feel it doesn't make as much sense for people to have *started with* monotheism (just one goddess). I get that there are goddess-like statues (perhaps...or just pregnant women...it is hard to tell) found at this point but cave paintings often show half-man, half-animal creatures. So I don't believe monotheism existed in the beginning.
Sorry to go on and on! I don't necessarily believe people knew "more" way back when...in fact, scientifically they knew much less. But religion is its own thing. I do believe in God and I have always had a feeling different gods were part of one basic thing. Now that WAS a PIE belief, at least in a way. I know they saw the cosmos as a human body. Yet the "pieces" were different deities. I wonder if there is something to that.
I did, and I adored Clan of the Cave Bear. The rest, not as many. I have read Clan probably ten times, maybe eleven...I can't even remember anymore.
That was I think 30,000 BCE.
One thing (which was addressed in Auel's books as a hypothetical) was when people realized men had something to do with pregnancy. Opinions differ WILDLY on this, and I mean wildly. Pregnancy would not automatically be equated to sex because a woman doesn't know she's pregnant until possibly a month or more after, even if she would be watching the moon's cycles and/or other women's cycles. And of course, a woman can have sex for months or longer and not get pregnant...then suddenly she is.
It is my opinion based on my reading (because I love prehistory and history) that when men realized they were part of the procreation process, that's when "creation" male deities began to exist, including one top of the heirarchy, a Father God...but...I don't know *when* that would have happened. I believe that makes a difference.
As far as just a goddess, I am not sure I agree with Auel on that one. Granted she started her research 40+ years ago and a lot has been discovered since then (I am still astounded by her research), but I can't see why there wouldn't be both male and female gods from the beginning, since spirits would have overseen everything, not just creation. Weather...sickness...etc.
And also because of animism...I feel it doesn't make as much sense for people to have *started with* monotheism (just one goddess). I get that there are goddess-like statues (perhaps...or just pregnant women...it is hard to tell) found at this point but cave paintings often show half-man, half-animal creatures. So I don't believe monotheism existed in the beginning.
Sorry to go on and on! I don't necessarily believe people knew "more" way back when...in fact, scientifically they knew much less. But religion is its own thing. I do believe in God and I have always had a feeling different gods were part of one basic thing. Now that WAS a PIE belief, at least in a way. I know they saw the cosmos as a human body. Yet the "pieces" were different deities. I wonder if there is something to that.
No, do go on, lol.
I doubt it was monotheism either, even if such an Earth-Mother type goddess did exist in the minds of the ice-age people. More likely those figurines had to do specifically with fertility.
If I'm not mistaken there are, or were up until relatively recently, still some cultures that did not connect sex and pregnancy.
I am interested in the animal-spirit types of beliefs found in the people indigenous to the Americas. I would imagine those beliefs go back to antiquity, as well. As a person who tends to look for "signs", or maybe more accurately, "connections", in the natural world, this resonates with me to some degree, although I wouldn't base all major life decisions on the sight of a particular bird or critter!
So...basically what you're saing is that before the earth/sky gods there was basically animism? Thank you! And I can't thank you enough for all this information. Wow, you really took some time here, I appreciate it.
I am finding PIE group beliefs easier to research, the pre-PIEs are more of a mystery.
Officially:
Animism
Animism is the oldest religion on Earth. Still practiced today, this ancient way of thinking has roots in the earliest religious thoughts of mankind. Animism is the belief that all things, from animals to rivers, are alive and animated. It dates back to the Paleolithic Age, far before organized religion was ever even considered. Frankly, animism predates organized society, much less organized religion. It was the belief system of hunter-gatherers who were still far from becoming the dominant species on Earth. The sheer age of the religion, however, goes to show that even when humans were struggling to survive, they believed that there was something more to this world.
Unofficially, there were countless religions and faiths before it. Just as there were countless forgotten civilizations before the oldest one, we know. And I am not referring to relatively small spans of time, I am referring to millions of years.
I keep forgetting the name of that book but, it is the oldest noetic text in the world, estimated at 96 000 years. Somewhere from India region. reason being, it describes celestial events that occured 96 000 years ago, seen as by an eyewitness. Just an example.
All the best on your quest, Friend.
PS
The earliest evidence we have for religious faith anywhere in the world is from Blombos Cave in South Africa, where people may have been using red ochre for funerals about 100,000 years ago.
Thanks to you both for all the input. It is tremendous.
It looks as though animism had changed to a home and hearth matriarchal (but perhaps not exclusively) system by the time the PIEs were coming in to clash...because of farming. And this rings a huge bell for me. Home and hearth, the seasons, birth, getting things to grow...these have all always sung to me.
I wonder if I am being led to this place to explore that. I really never feel closer to God or gods than when I am in an environment where I can nurture, caretake, and watch everyone and everything around me grow.
No. It didn't change much. It has always been with the common sense folks as, common sense clearly shows, that nature is alive and conscious in some ways. Don't need organized religion and priests to tell you that, few years of life experience and paying attention to life makes it quite obvious.
Personally, I feel, you are on the wrong path, as you seek religion, not knowledge. Noos, knowledge, is above all religions. Seek that, and it will be provided.
Esoterics might be a better option for you? You need something, that encompasses everything and gives whole picture, not pieces of mosaic to look at, drop, and grab another one.
No. It didn't change much. It has always been with the common sense folks as, common sense clearly shows, that nature is alive and conscious in some ways. Don't need organized religion and priests to tell you that, few years of life experience and paying attention to life makes it quite obvious.
Personally, I feel, you are on the wrong path, as you seek religion, not knowledge. Noos, knowledge, is above all religions. Seek that, and it will be provided.
Esoterics might be a better option for you? You need something, that encompasses everything and gives whole picture, not pieces of mosaic to look at, drop, and grab another one.
No. It didn't change much. It has always been with the common sense folks as, common sense clearly shows, that nature is alive and conscious in some ways. Don't need organized religion and priests to tell you that, few years of life experience and paying attention to life makes it quite obvious.
Personally, I feel, you are on the wrong path, as you seek religion, not knowledge. Noos, knowledge, is above all religions. Seek that, and it will be provided.
Esoterics might be a better option for you? You need something, that encompasses everything and gives whole picture, not pieces of mosaic to look at, drop, and grab another one.
This is always my struggle. I can not seem to let go and simply "believe." I always have to intellect the hell out of it.
I have always felt that got between me and "truly believing" anything.
Maybe esoterics is more like it. That makes me sad, though...because I wish I could be one of those people who can "just believe."
This is always my struggle. I can not seem to let go and simply "believe." I always have to intellect the hell out of it.
I have always felt that got between me and "truly believing" anything.
Maybe esoterics is more like it. That makes me sad, though...because I wish I could be one of those people who can "just believe."
I am not sure there are many who “just believe”. Our innate reasoning would reject untill it makes sense. What that sense may be individual.
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