Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What is this "pointing" you keep referring to? Near as I can tell it means "this feels like it transcends the natural world to me". Is there something other than how it seems or feels to you that would be indicative of something that can't be adequately explained naturally, by behavioral observations, biological science (mirror neurons), empathy and so forth?
Explain it naturally. If you can't, then we must conclude it's supernatural. That's how logic works.
Quote:
In addition, if morality is supernatural, how would we ever access it?
The same way we access math or anything else that is logical. God gave us brains.
Quote:
For example god is supernatural, but we cannot observe him. We have to take the word of theologians or the Bible or your pastor for it that god has certain attributes and behaviors. But morality is different from an ineffable god that is asserted rather than visible. The moral qualities of behaviors indeed CAN be observed and assessed. That "points" to it being a product of natural processes.
I can see the things that God has created as proof that the creator exists.
Explain it naturally. If you can't, then we must conclude it's supernatural. That's how logic works.
Except that I can and have explained it naturally. As have people far smarter than me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
The same way we access math or anything else that is logical. God gave us brains.
We are creatures of the natural world with five senses. Anything outside the natural word (or indeed the existence of an order outside the natural one) can be imagined but not actually accessed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I can see the things that God has created as proof that the creator exists.
That's an argument that god created the universe but we are talking about the nature and source of morality. If for the sake of argument god created the universe it does not mean the he created, enforces, or cares about our moral codes. It just shoehorns god into the picture to make that argument about morality even possible. Is there some way you can get at this directly?
Except that I can and have explained it naturally. As have people far smarter than me.
You mean where you told me you don't LIKE things you consider immoral? Or that societies figured out it is beneficial to have a system?
That doesn't explain how the concept of morality came about. Or how you can judge someone else's contradictory morality.
Quote:
We are creatures of the natural world with five senses. Anything outside the natural word (or indeed the existence of an order outside the natural one) can be imagined but not actually accessed.
Yet, we recognize transcendental laws of logic, math concepts, etc. Recognizing morality is like that.
Quote:
That's an argument that god created the universe but we are talking about the nature and source of morality. If for the sake of argument god created the universe it does not mean the he created, enforces, or cares about our moral codes. It just shoehorns god into the picture to make that argument about morality even possible. Is there some way you can get at this directly?
Yes. God created the concept of morality. It's a transcendental truth that cannot be explained by natural means.
It will ALWAYS be wrong to kill babies merely for personal pleasure. There is no way you can tell me that it's a good thing. It will always be evil to do so.
Your methodology is the same. It's your personal, secret knowledge, given to you alone.
Weird how you keep telling me all about it if you don't care.
Your claims go against all of what Christians have believed for thousands of years.
Yes. You claim to be able to interpret Scripture (at least the parts you believe) based on special knowledge given to you alone, but no one else. That's a very gnostic method of understanding the Scriptures.
The bold is a LIE!. You and everyone else have the exact same information available to you in the Bible from JESUS CHRIST on the Cross. He personally and Divinely revealed God's Holy Spirit as agape love and forgiveness because we know not what we do as His dying declaration! That cannot be reconciled with your interpretation of a wrathful and vengeful God who needed a horrendous scourging and crucifixion to forgive us for "whatever." No gnostic special knowledge is required!!!
It will ALWAYS be wrong to kill babies merely for personal pleasure. There is no way you can tell me that it's a good thing. It will always be evil to do so.
I'm not aware of a moral system that disagrees that is evil. But here again it's kind of irrelevant. One expects that regardless of culture some things are so harmful that it would be hard to argue any benefit in them. This does not make them moral absolutes, it just makes them morally simple and therefore for practical purposes universal. There are no "pros" to weigh against the "cons".
That this particular example is popular with apologists for a supernatural / divine morality just illustrates that you have to manufacture some sort of need for moral absolutes so that you can argue from that to a Moralizer / Enforcer. The irony here is that human moral systems naturally produce these "universals" by the exact process I've been describing all along. Societal morality is neither random nor arbitrary because humans have a lot in common. It is not immutable though in every particular because in many respects human understanding, convention and needs all differ and change over time and across cultures. I don't ever see a beneficial human need for infant torture, but I see things like:
Change in understanding: what 'equality' and 'fairness' mean with a better understanding of inclusiveness. For example our constitution was written by the wealthy elites of its day. It promoted equality, but not for all, just for some. We have expanded who gets to fully participate in that over time, however imperfectly.
Different conventions: morality is not just what the law says but what our default assumptions are. In much of SE Asia the social contract is that people wander into the street anyplace, anytime and traffic is vigilant to adjust so as not to strike them. In the USA we call that "jaywalking" because we expect people won't do that except at designated crossings where they defer to traffic signals or wait for an opening in traffic sufficient for them to cross without traffic having to account for them or at least will have relatively LOTS of time to do so.
Different needs: norms, defaults and assumptions for many aspects of society are changing because we realize we are not adequately accommodating persons with disabilities.
I would argue that your belief in an immutable morality is problematic in practical terms because it struggles to adapt and flow as per the above examples. It is mired in Bronze Age thinking where many political, economic and other concepts and systems that are actually essential to our society's functioning didn't exist and weren't thinkable. Democracy was unknown, things like slavery and child labor and illiteracy were assumed, etc.
Explain it naturally. If you can't, then we must conclude it's supernatural. That's how logic works.
Explain (not assert) it supernaturally. If you can not, then it must be natural. That is not how logic works, I am just applying your argument to both sides.
Yes. God created the concept of morality. It's a transcendental truth that cannot be explained by natural means.
Except it can be explained by natural means, as we have shown before. And every 'godidit' explanation either means could make anything morally good /which you will find offensive because of your different morality ), or that your 'godidit' explanation does not actually require a god.
The bold is a LIE!. You and everyone else have the exact same information available to you in the Bible from JESUS CHRIST on the Cross. He personally and Divinely revealed God's Holy Spirit as agape love and forgiveness because we know not what we do as His dying declaration! That cannot be reconciled with your interpretation of a wrathful and vengeful God who needed a horrendous scourging and crucifixion to forgive us for "whatever." No gnostic special knowledge is required!!!
So when I quote from Jude where it says Jesus destroyed the Israelites in the desert...do you believe it? It's what Jude actually wrote. Do you believe it? It's revealed in Scripture. You say you believe in Scripture.
So when I quote from Jude where it says Jesus destroyed the Israelites in the desert...do you believe it? It's what Jude actually wrote. Do you believe it? It's revealed in Scripture. You say you believe in Scripture.
I believe JUDE believed it because to him EVERYTHING was the result of God's Will. Most of us know better today, especially those who believe Jesus Christ is God and God IS agape love as He described and demonstrated. I assume you do not???
I believe JUDE believed it because to him EVERYTHING was the result of God's Will. Most of us know better today, especially those who believe Jesus Christ is God and God IS agape love as He described and demonstrated. I assume you do not???
And thanks for proving my point. You claim to believe Scripture, but when push comes to shove you claim to know more than Scripture. How? Because of some special insight. That's very gnostic of you.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
), or that your 'godidit' explanation does not actually require a god.
