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Never said anything about "no parents are athiests" you missed the point altogether. It's the EMOTIONS of humans and their SOULS that separate them from other life. Even Athiests have souls, it's just kinda doomed so to speak.
I love it. "Even" atheists have souls. As if somehow we are just barely people, just barely above an animal. I suppose you first have to dehumanize a person before you can happily send them off to be done away with.
No ... no soul is doomed. I'm very confident that, should there be an afterlife, we all travel on to it when we die. We aren't judged by some vainglorious entity - nor were we put here on this earth to endlessly please and praise some god.
Truth be told, this idea that only "special people" go to heaven and every one else goes off to be tortured forever - that's a very Hitlereque worldview, to be brutally honest. And we've heard it all before.
Only the Master Race will ascend to heaven while the inferior people will be shipped off to the concentration camps and, ultimately, the gas chambers. Only, with religion, it is far worse than gas chambers because religion teaches you that you are soooo much better than those inferior people that they deserve to be gassed and tortured forever. And ever. And ever. While you sit up there in paradise watching the carnage.
Yet somehow when this Master Race worldview is framed from the standpoint of race, it's somehow bad. But when the exact same worldview is framed within the context of religion, suddenly, it's okay. It's fine. No harm is being done at all! Especially since those inferior non-believers (which includes people who believe in other gods) don't deserve paradise anyway since they refused to conform ...
The only difference is that, with religion, people let their god commit the atrocity. It's their god that drops the Zyclon B into the gas chamber and slams home the airtight door. It makes people feel as if their hands are clean. Though if you happily cheer on the atrocities from the sidelines, you're just as guilty.
I honestly don't know how many times I have to make it clear that this kind of a belief is immoral - and to anyone with a good conscience should see that. But people are so willing to buy into the fantasy that they ignore the horrors. It just goes to show you how believers in these kinds of religions are literally willing to see 2/3rds of the current human population be tortured forever as long as they get a seat on the magic bus where they can live forever. Doesn't say much for loving thy neighbor. Does it.
My WW II combat vet father always said that you'll never find an Atheist in a foxhole under bombardment....Draw your own conclusions.
Well, I just happen to be an historian and WWII just happens to also be my area of expertise. And I can tell you from first hand interviews of WWII combat vets that a lot of soldiers went into the war a believer and came out of it an atheist. Especially those who liberated the Nazi camps.
Namely because the horrors of war caused them to realize - how can a truly good god allow these horrors to happen and literally stand there and do nothing? Their only conclusions were that either god simply doesn't care - or god doesn't exist. Almost all of them decided that a non-existent god was far better than one who simply doesn't care.
Israel, for instance, is one of the most secular nations on earth where atheism is deeply entrenched into their society - and a lot of that comes from the Holocaust. They are cultural Jews, but not religious Jews. Because the Holocaust survivors had a difficult time rectifying the presence of a God who would allow them to suffer so horribly.
So ... yeah ... the "no atheists in foxholes" is a cutesy little meme, but there is no truth to it. Don't believe everything you see on a bumper sticker.
Well, I just happen to be an historian and WWII just happens to also be my area of expertise. And I can tell you from first hand interviews of WWII combat vets that a lot of soldiers went into the war a believer and came out of it an atheist. Especially those who liberated the Nazi camps.
Namely because the horrors of war caused them to realize - how can a truly good god allow these horrors to happen and literally stand there and do nothing? Their only conclusions were that either god simply doesn't care - or god doesn't exist. Almost all of them decided that a non-existent god was far better than one who simply doesn't care.
Israel, for instance, is one of the most secular nations on earth where atheism is deeply entrenched into their society - and a lot of that comes from the Holocaust. They are cultural Jews, but not religious Jews. Because the Holocaust survivors had a difficult time rectifying the presence of a God who would allow them to suffer so horribly.
So ... yeah ... the "no atheists in foxholes" is a cutesy little meme, but there is no truth to it. Don't believe everything you see on a bumper sticker.
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Ever since its creation, there have been debates and disagreements about the nature of the state of Israel. Formally, it's a secular democracy where Judaism is privileged; in reality, many orthodox Jews believe that Israel should be a theocratic state where Judaism is the supreme law of the land. Secular and orthodox Jews are at odds over the future of Israel and it's uncertain what will happen.
Well, I just happen to be an historian and WWII just happens to also be my area of expertise. And I can tell you from first hand interviews of WWII combat vets that a lot of soldiers went into the war a believer and came out of it an atheist. Especially those who liberated the Nazi camps. Namely because the horrors of war caused them to realize - how can a truly good god allow these horrors to happen and literally stand there and do nothing? Their only conclusions were that either god simply doesn't care - or god doesn't exist. Almost all of them decided that a non-existent god was far better than one who simply doesn't care. Israel, for instance, is one of the most secular nations on earth where atheism is deeply entrenched into their society - and a lot of that comes from the Holocaust. They are cultural Jews, but not religious Jews. Because the Holocaust survivors had a difficult time rectifying the presence of a God who would allow them to suffer so horribly. So ... yeah ... the "no atheists in foxholes" is a cutesy little meme, but there is no truth to it. Don't believe everything you see on a bumper sticker.
it is inaccurate to say that Holocaust survivors do not believe in God. It is also inaccurate to say that Israelis do not believe in God. Polls show that 80% of Israelis believe in God, so it is inaccurate to claim that "atheism is deeply entrenched" there. Post above does not accurately speak for Jews in Israel or anywhere, nor does it accurately speak for how Jews view the Holocaust, and how Jews view God.
The post above is claims about God from an atheist with virulent views about God.
There was still a small sheep farm in my hometown when I was a kid. And we had chickens in the backyard. People behind us had horses. There were woods across the street.
Now those places have houses. We were only 30 miles NW of NYC, so the burbs inevitably encroached upon our little mostly-blue-collar, semi-rural town.
And I think christianity is laughable since all of the 'great' bible stories all happened during the period of undocumented history and haven't repeated in the time of modern man when we could study them. Y'all are still listening to goat herders. But go ahead...god turned anyone into a pillar of salt lately?
See how easy that kind of thinking is?
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Originally Posted by Northsouth
YES!! And LOL I used to say the bolded above all the time, but it was more like "ancient, ignorant, goat herders" LOL. Let's see if that one doesn't start a fire.
Phet, We've been around here a long time but I plum forgot you were Buddhist. Cool - Which I am losing more and more of on this board. Might need a whiskey break.
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Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
It does seem like a belief. Choosing to not believe is a belief in and of itself....at least how my mind works.
Sort of like choosing to not make a choice between something is a choice.
I wouldn't say laughable, as that is demeaning, but I don't see how:
-the laws of physics always just existed and the universe created itself
is any different than
-God always just existed and created the universe.
I just see and feel Jesus.
Hi,
Follower of Jesus here. When my husband first asked me out on a date I really didn't want to say yes, and one of the reasons is because he is an atheist/agnostic type person. So....I made him promise me that if it worked out we'd raise kids as Quakers. He has since leveraged this to mean that he gets to raise the kids on more of his politics (libertarian...almost conservative) as opposed to mine (moderate Dem).
Any thoughts on that?
I think we are all God's children and loved equally by God...no matter our religion or lack there of, that Jesus just wants us to love and serve our fellow men. However, I want that foundation I had as a child for my little ones.
Expectant waiting helped me so much in my life and to be able to connect to Jesus in meditation and to have more purpose in doing community service.
Hey...don't call me a goat herder!
I feel as if there is tangible evidence of Jesus when I do expectant waiting...I can feel him...its comfort...its a call to love all and serve all.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
You kind of missed the point of my comment, so I wouldn't exactly call your post a response. As to the bolded...I don't see what that has to say to my statement, which was: "And I think christianity is laughable since all of the 'great' bible stories all happened during the period of undocumented history and haven't repeated in the time of modern man when we could study them. Y'all are still listening to goat herders. But go ahead...god turned anyone into a pillar of salt lately?"
So just take the bolded crux of my post. You know, things like Adam & Eve, Noah's Flood, parting the Red Sea, you know...the Cecil B DeMille moments from the Bible. How come they never happen nowadays? I can believe your thinking of god and Jesus can bring you contentment, just as I sometimes reduce stress by thinking about Buddha. But that's not what I was talking about.
I have nothing against goat herders. But they aren't exactly Rhodes Scholars, and I'm not sure goat herders can tell me much about the world and life in 2022.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
the crux of what is conveyed in the posts is belittling, mocking, and sneering condescension.
yet again
bold above
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Yes, logically it is a belief, but the way the mind works makes some think it is not. However, it is not a choice, it is a conclusion. No one asks, mmmh, should I believe in a god or not, one looks at the evidence one has and comes to a conclusion based on that evidence. The question is, how good is that evidence?
It is not different. But that is the point. One can not ask where the properties of existence come from, but not ask the same question for a god. If the properties of your god must be inherent in it's existence, then existence itself must have inherent properties (which are described by the laws of Physics). Therefore we do not need a god to explain them.
But many Christians want this special pleading to be true, in fact they need it to be true so that they can beg the question. You are the first Christian I have seen who recognizes there can be no difference.
It is a cheap shot, and even more amusing considering my Grandfather was a goat herder, just like his Father, but by the time he was 8, his education had included reading some of the works by philosophers like Aristotle and Plato.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
But it wasn't a cheap shot. I didn't call her a goat herder. I called Bible era christians goat herders...or fishermen, etc. That's what they were, for the most part. She's generally a wonderful poster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
I meant in general it is a cheap shot, perhaps I should have expanded on that. I do apologize for implying you were taking a cheap shot.
Oh...it was definitely a cheap shot...and a standard at that.
Seen it hundreds of times on this board...and it is always meant derisively.
Look above at the initial exchange on it. They actually think it's funny to be so miserably insulting.
Of course...now trying to backtrack and pretend it wasn't, since they have realized how uncouth and a bad look it would be to bust on the Beliefs of someone as sweet & cool as QuakerBaker.
Well, I just happen to be an historian and WWII just happens to also be my area of expertise. And I can tell you from first hand interviews of WWII combat vets that a lot of soldiers went into the war a believer and came out of it an atheist. Especially those who liberated the Nazi camps.
Namely because the horrors of war caused them to realize - how can a truly good god allow these horrors to happen and literally stand there and do nothing? Their only conclusions were that either god simply doesn't care - or god doesn't exist. Almost all of them decided that a non-existent god was far better than one who simply doesn't care.
Israel, for instance, is one of the most secular nations on earth where atheism is deeply entrenched into their society - and a lot of that comes from the Holocaust. They are cultural Jews, but not religious Jews. Because the Holocaust survivors had a difficult time rectifying the presence of a God who would allow them to suffer so horribly.
So ... yeah ... the "no atheists in foxholes" is a cutesy little meme, but there is no truth to it. Don't believe everything you see on a bumper sticker.
Every person should be required to read Night, by Elie Weisel, in my opinion. It is a short book, about 80 pages, but I did not sleep well after I finished it.
This post reminds me of the Rabbi in the concentration camp who said there is no God after they witnessed the Nazis hang a young Jewish boy.
Every person should be required to read Night, by Elie Weisel, in my opinion. It is a short book, about 80 pages, but I did not sleep well after I finished it.
This post reminds me of the Rabbi in the concentration camp who said there is no God after they witnessed the Nazis hang a young Jewish boy.
Q: Why do you think people ask you these questions?
A: It is for their sake. They want to understand. Look, a very religious person would not ask me this question; only if that religious person has some anxiety or some doubt, then that person wants to know how I deal with that anxiety and that doubt. And I say, `Look, I have faith. It’s a wounded faith.’
it is inaccurate to say that Holocaust survivors do not believe in God.
Of those I have read, and the few I have had the privilege to hear, some were atheists before they were sent to the camps. Those who were religious usually either became more religious or they stopped believing (or expressed doubts).
I will ignore the rest of your post as it is misrepresenting what Shirina said. For example, secular is not the same as being an atheist.
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And LOL
I used to say the bolded above all the time, but it was more like "ancient, ignorant, goat herders" LOL. Let's see if that one doesn't start a fire.
