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That is merely the argumentum ad popululum fallacy.
The number of people who believe in something does not, in any way, indicate whether that something is true.
Look how many people used to believe that the sun orbited around the earth?
Or that the stars were mere lights that were very close by.
Some entire civilizations believed they were the campfires of other people.
I mean, seriously, we know very well how our knowledge has advanced and evolved over the millennia. And though we have answered so many questions - there is still no sign of a god.
What's missing here is whether there is GOOD evidence for the existence of a god. Not just "evidence."
Unfortunately, a lot of misguided people will attribute just about anything to god. If they get lucky with something, god did it. They survived a car wreck - god did it. They get a promotion at work - god did it. They won a game of Uno - god did it. They see everything as a sign that god is real.
But it's not GOOD evidence. It doesn't even imply that ANY god is involved - let alone their specific god at the head of their specific denomination of their specific religion.
Religion is full to bursting with cultural bias. Thus, if something unknown, unexplainable, or mysterious happens - it not only was a god, but their specific god. Because people tend to superimpose their own cultural beliefs onto whatever question they think is being answered.
I know I've told this story before, but it is an excellent example. My father claims to have been visited by Jesus once, so I asked him:
"How do you know it was Jesus?"
And his response?
"Well, who else could it have been?"
If that isn't an obvious case of cultural bias, I don't know what would be. But it goes to show you what most people do when confronted with something outside of their comfort zone. In fact, most people, I would argue, wouldn't even bother trying to find out the truth. They would simply assume it was their own personal god - and be content with that.
People have been using the God of the Gaps for thousands of years. This is why a lot of people think they have sufficient evidence to believe in these, to be succinct, nonsense stories. Because, let's face it, in everything else we do, in every other decision we make, we want hardcore evidence. If not, then Nigeria would be the richest country in the world, their economy fueled entirely by Nigerian Prince scams that the rest of the world continues to fall for again and again.
But most people do not fall for those scams because they actually THINK about the information they are given and apply critical thinking to that information - and most come away realizing, for one reason or another, that it is a scam.
But when it comes to religion, people simply chuck their brain into the nearest garbage bin and let every huckster behind a pulpit take them for a ride. This is why so many of these creeps live in multi-million dollar mansions and even bamboozle their congregations to buy them not one, but two private jets. Not to mention how the city of Kinshasa is filled with toddlers as young as 3 wandering abandoned in the streets - some with amputated limbs. Why? Because the local Christian ministers were telling the parents that if they are in poverty, it's because their children are using witchcraft on them. And because it's religion, they don't think, they just do. And so these poor kids are booted out of their homes - and some parents hack off arms in the hopes that, in so doing, their kids can't cast more spells on them. One thing is absolutely certain: atheism has never caused mass hysteria in any fashion even close to that. Like - those poor Arabian girls who were left to burn alive in a school all because they didn't have on the proper religious head covering before evacuating. The Morality Police actually tackled rescue workers to the ground to make sure those girls were not rescued.
That's what religion does to people. It makes people silly. And I'm only using the word "silly" because the words I'd rather use would be censored. Too many people are so intent on living forever that they'll buy all kinds of snake oil from these people - and listen as how, not just gospel, but politics espousing authoritarianism and fascism and theocratism - is rammed down their throats. They are told who to hate, who to oppress, who to mistrust while they sit in their pews, nodding their heads all slackjawed and braindead - emitting the same exact brainwaves as one does when watching hours of mindless television.
As I'm sure you remember...I have always disputed the application of Pedigree Logic and the argument of "Logical Fallacy" when debating Social/Religious/Political issues.
We live in a gigantic World Society of almost EIGHT BILLION people.
The Beliefs, preferences, and proclivities of the gigantic and diverse mass of humans cannot be assessed and analyzed as in a laboratory or thru the SM.
So...as you know...I have always endorsed "numbers" (ad Populum) when trying to examine these matters.
What rules the voting booth?---THE MAJORITY!
What rules the marketplace?---THE MAJORITY!
What rules the media?---THE MAJORITY!
What rules social interaction?---THE MAJORITY!
ETC
ETC
ETC
THE MAJORITY is sooooooo powerful...it can be "wrong", and still dominate!...it's the consummate "Influencer".
The Majority is sooooooo powerful it can take a fallacy position and steamroll over a position of truth with it. The truth may still be truth...but it's "crushed" as far as having any power or influence.
Which is ultimately what will determine How This World Society Actually Is.
I may believe that the main Theological Writings are metaphorical and allegorical works of literary art, that are representative of God (Reality/All That Is) and how God functions (from the perspective of people a thousand or more years ago)...but if the majority of the world believes those writings from a literal basis, that will have a near impregnable dominating influence on society.
There are many things that dominate the world society that I do not prefer or believe to be true...but my view is essentially inconsequential.
So, I have a choice...learn to accept how it is (and cope), OR, futilely live in some degree of constant angst and vexation.
If you had even a small fraction of the intellect and wisdom possessed by those "goat herders" (a common typical mocking slam by miserable haters) you'd be greatly improved.
They composed the most epic, prolific, and influential Books & Writings in human history. You are correct..."they aren't exactly Rhodes Scholars"...they were way above that.
Please note your comparable accomplishments.
And that's utter nonsense, too.
Sure, if I want my goats herded, I would go ask them.
But these people knew literally NOTHING about the world in which they lived - let alone the universe. Everything was explained in supernatural, magical, and religious terms because they literally had nothing else. They had no science and no scientific method. They didn't have a process of peer review, they didn't have research universities or observatories or particle colliders or any of that. In fact, even for the time period in which they lived, the people who wrote the Bible were far more primitive than, say, the Chinese, the Meso-Americans, the people living in the Indus Valley - much less Greece or Rome or Babylon, etc. etc.
You can praise and backpat them all you want, it doesn't change reality. They were not "way above" Rhodes scholars. And I think you're smart enough to know that. Unfortunately, you're now saying things that are patently absurd just to avoid losing the argument.
The ONLY reason why their ridiculous book filled with plagierized stories from other myths and religions became the "thing" that it has become is because:
1) some insane Roman emperor thought he saw a cross in the sky so immediately made Christianity the official religion of Rome. Kind of like this guy with a Ph.D. in molecular biology who decided to throw away his education in favor of believing in Adam and Eve - because he saw a frozen waterfall that had 3 parts to it - you know - because of the Holy Trinity? Which isn't even in the Bible anywhere? Yeah, I didn't make that connection either when I first heard that story. But there it is. Just goes to show you that some people will jump on any old bandwagon that happens to pass by - for literally any reason.
2) crazy Christian rulers went around slaughtering everyone that didn't immediately renounce the gods they currently worshiped and become Christians right there on the spot. I mean, they literally slaughtered people who literally did not convert right there on the spot. Charlamagne, for instance, rampaged through what is now France and parts of Germany going to every village, town, and city. Everyone would be gathered in the square - and you had to publicly convert to Christianity right there and then. A chopping block was placed right there in full view to let everyone know in no uncertain terms what would happen if you refused to convert. There were all kinds of atrocities - like the Bloody Verdict of Verdun whereby some 3,000 pagan priests were put to death all at once. I know 3,000 doesn't seem like a lot these days - but considering the population in those days, that was a huge number. It's probably a safe bet to assume that if you're Christian and have ancestry going back to ancient continental Europe, your faith came about due to threats and violence - not because of any inherent truths.
3) and if not for the crazy Christian rulers, there was also the Catholic Church that went around slaughtering everyone that Charlamagne and his ilk missed. Especially the Cathars. The Catholics absolutly HATED the Cathars for some bizarre reason - especially because they did utterly insane things like, you know, treat women as the equal to men. How dare they? So they had to be slaughtered. Ever hear the expression, "Kill them all and let God sort 'em out"? That was actually said by a Catholic bishop to a lieutenant who had asked how his army could tell the difference between a Catholic and a Cathar. They hated Cathars so much they were willing to slaughter Catholics too just to make sure the Cathars were all dead! But they did a number on everyone - like Gnostic Christians. They had to go, too. In fact, everyone had to go. Because the Catholic Church wanted power and money - which is why you could actually buy your way into heaven. But I'm sure you don't need me to tell you how the Church was, for the most part, pro-Nazi and, of course, now seem to be pro-pedophile. And yet these were the people who dominated Western civilization for almost 1500 years.
My point is that the proliferation of Bibles and Christianity itself had very little to do with actual truth. It just didn't. History is there for the reading - assuming people don't immediately call it fake because it doesn't paint Christendom with rosey colors. Although it is painted quite a bit with shades of scarlet and crimson - if you get my meaning. Unfortunately, Christendom would still like nothing better than to conquor the world. Other epic books have been written by other faiths - the Mahabharata, for instance, or the Ramayana - both thousands of years older than the Bible. Have you read those? Probably not. Because the Hindus didn't go around slaughtering people and demanding that people convert to Hinduism or die right there on the spot - man, woman, or child. Hindus really aren't into conquering the world or sending missionaries to impoverished nations using food and health care as incentives to convert people.
You fervently practice the Religion of insulting and mocking Theists.
Again...you have fully retained your fundamentalism...you are now just the other side of that same coin.
And you are here, busting on strangers about their Religion. So, you want at least that part of it.
C'mon, GldnRule - don't make me bust you down a few thousand pegs for bringing up this stupid notion that if an atheist expresses his or her opinion on why they do not believe, they are some kind of rabid fundamentalist hater that shouldn't even be allowed to post here because of undefined reasons.
I'm really getting sick of this.
Christians are allowed to come in to this forum and post all kinds of sick and twisted beliefs. Fortunately most people have been relatively sane lately. But I think you've been around long enough to know that there has been just as much rabid hatred thrown at atheists, gays, transgendered, other religions, and all the rest of it - all because they were allowed to use religion as a shield.
But my, oh, my, my, my. If an atheist calls religion - any religion - to book for it's insanity, we're just *ahem* militant atheists and haters who do nothing but bash religion. Although, honestly, what do you expect us to do? Love on religion? We became atheists for a bloody reason - and we have just as much of a right to express our opinions as any theist.
But then again, that's what I've been warning people about for, what has it been now, about 10 years? I have repeatedly warned that even many mild-mannered Christians do not wish to live in a truly pluralistic society. They say they do, give a lot of lip service to freedom of speech and the Constitution and all of that. But that's only when the sky is blue and the sun is shining. If an atheist stands up and dares to express how they don't like something Christians are doing - and, worse still - goes on to explain how Christianity itself is the problem ...
It's amazing how freedom of speech and opinion goes right out the window. The only opinion anyone is allowed to have in THIS here forum is to love on religion like a cat rolling around in a pile of catnip. Don't you DARE critisize religion! I mean, the rules themselves pretty much silenced most atheists - which is why there aren't many of us left here these days - because we're no longer allowed to discuss religion as it pertains to science. We're not allowed to discuss religion as it pertains to politics. We're BARELY allowed to discuss religion as it pertains to society and culture - and we still end up getting reported anyway.
All the while being regaled with posts like yours. Here's an idea. Why not actually REFUTE what you don't like? Hmm? Why not post a counter argument? Why not write up a reason why their opinion is bunk? That's the way it used to be done here.
But not anymore. Which is why I don't really post here anymore. The rules already gave believers the home court advantage. And that made believers feel that they don't even HAVE to defend themselves. Nope. All they have to do now is call atheists "haters" and anti-theist "fundamentalists" for daring to say anything at all negative about their religion. You even have Christians and Hindus and Muslims and Pantheists and Pagans and pretty much everyone else ganging up on atheists because, wait for it ... wait for it ... yeah ... because this is the "Spirituality and Religion" forum and atheists, of course, have neither. I mean, wow, reducing your arguments to mere semantics ... that's nothing to be proud of. Seriously.
I've long given up caring if people think I'm condescending or elitist or arrogant or conceited or any other negative adjective one wants to throw at me. Because I realize that no matter how I word my posts, whether I'm polite or professional or if I'm nasty and sarcastic, I'm going to get hit with the same bunch of crap.
Sorry, GldnRule ... not all of that applied to you. But damn, man.
Sure, if I want my goats herded, I would go ask them.
But these people knew literally NOTHING about the world in which they lived - let alone the universe. Everything was explained in supernatural, magical, and religious terms because they literally had nothing else. They had no science and no scientific method. They didn't have a process of peer review, they didn't have research universities or observatories or particle colliders or any of that. In fact, even for the time period in which they lived, the people who wrote the Bible were far more primitive than, say, the Chinese, the Meso-Americans, the people living in the Indus Valley - much less Greece or Rome or Babylon, etc. etc.
You can praise and backpat them all you want, it doesn't change reality. They were not "way above" Rhodes scholars. And I think you're smart enough to know that. Unfortunately, you're now saying things that are patently absurd just to avoid losing the argument.
The ONLY reason why their ridiculous book filled with plagierized stories from other myths and religions became the "thing" that it has become is because:
1) some insane Roman emperor thought he saw a cross in the sky so immediately made Christianity the official religion of Rome. Kind of like this guy with a Ph.D. in molecular biology who decided to throw away his education in favor of believing in Adam and Eve - because he saw a frozen waterfall that had 3 parts to it - you know - because of the Holy Trinity? Which isn't even in the Bible anywhere? Yeah, I didn't make that connection either when I first heard that story. But there it is. Just goes to show you that some people will jump on any old bandwagon that happens to pass by - for literally any reason.
2) crazy Christian rulers went around slaughtering everyone that didn't immediately renounce the gods they currently worshiped and become Christians right there on the spot. I mean, they literally slaughtered people who literally did not convert right there on the spot. Charlamagne, for instance, rampaged through what is now France and parts of Germany going to every village, town, and city. Everyone would be gathered in the square - and you had to publicly convert to Christianity right there and then. A chopping block was placed right there in full view to let everyone know in no uncertain terms what would happen if you refused to convert. There were all kinds of atrocities - like the Bloody Verdict of Verdun whereby some 3,000 pagan priests were put to death all at once. I know 3,000 doesn't seem like a lot these days - but considering the population in those days, that was a huge number. It's probably a safe bet to assume that if you're Christian and have ancestry going back to ancient continental Europe, your faith came about due to threats and violence - not because of any inherent truths.
3) and if not for the crazy Christian rulers, there was also the Catholic Church that went around slaughtering everyone that Charlamagne and his ilk missed. Especially the Cathars. The Catholics absolutly HATED the Cathars for some bizarre reason - especially because they did utterly insane things like, you know, treat women as the equal to men. How dare they? So they had to be slaughtered. Ever hear the expression, "Kill them all and let God sort 'em out"? That was actually said by a Catholic bishop to a lieutenant who had asked how his army could tell the difference between a Catholic and a Cathar. They hated Cathars so much they were willing to slaughter Catholics too just to make sure the Cathars were all dead! But they did a number on everyone - like Gnostic Christians. They had to go, too. In fact, everyone had to go. Because the Catholic Church wanted power and money - which is why you could actually buy your way into heaven. But I'm sure you don't need me to tell me how the Church was, for the most part, pro-Nazi and, of course, now seem to be pro-pedophile. And yet these were the people who dominated Western civilization for almost 1500 years.
My point is that the proliferation of Bibles and Christianity itself had very little to do with actual truth. It just didn't. History is there for the reading - assuming people don't immediately call it fake because it doesn't paint Christendom with rosey colors. Although it is painted quite a bit with shades of scarlet and crimson - if you get my meaning. Unfortunately, Christendom would still like nothing better than to conquor the world. Other epic books have been written by other faiths - the Mahabharata, for instance, or the Ramayana - both thousands of years older than the Bible. Have you read those? Probably not. Because the Hindus didn't go around slaughtering people and demanding that people convert to Hinduism or die right there on the spot - man, woman, or child. Hindus really aren't into conquering the world or sending missionaries to impoverished nations using food and health care as incentives to convert people.
Shirina...I understand where you are coming from
But as a staunch Anti-Theist/Religionist you are not about to acknowledge the incredible literary artistic genius of these people.
This was thousands of years ago...a fully agrarian world. Everyone was a farmer, and herded animals and grew/gathered vegetation.
To try to use "Rhodes Scholars" as a metric is just meant to insult.
"Knowing" data/facts not yet discovered or figured out is, of course, not a determination of intellect.
We do now know that the mental ability to grasp and comprehend things has not changed in modern humans...just the amount of things that have been figured out.
Some of the most brilliant people have been very evil, or superstitious like Newton.
Those that wrote The Bible were, for sure, the top intellectuals of their time...and certainly every bit as "smart" and intelligent as anyone that has received some modern award or designation.
You’re changing the subject. You said the Christian god made no effort to be known. He spoke to the prophets, came in the form of Jesus, gave us scripture, evangelists, etc.
And yet there are still tens of millions who don't believe at all. And the vast majority do not believe in your specific religion and your specific god. And an even larger majority - like 98% - do not believe in your specific demonination.
So I would call that an epic fail on the part of your god - regardless of what he intended.
Unless he intended that the waters of his religion remain muddied for the next 4,000 years. If that was the intent, then wow, mission accomplished.
And yet there are still tens of millions who don't believe at all. And the vast majority do not believe in your specific religion and your specific god. And an even larger majority - like 98% - do not believe in your specific demonination.
So I would call that an epic fail on the part of your god - regardless of what he intended.
Unless he intended that the waters of his religion remain muddied for the next 4,000 years. If that was the intent, then wow, mission accomplished.
LOL
Christianity is the largest religion in the world and the Abrahamic God is worshipped by a majority of the religious.
I’m glad you agree that the Christian God did make Himself known.
If you had even a small fraction of the intellect and wisdom possessed by those "goat herders" (a common typical mocking slam by miserable haters) you'd be greatly improved.
Ironic coming from the most miserable hater here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
They composed the most epic, prolific, and influential Books & Writings in human history. You are correct..."they aren't exactly Rhodes Scholars"...they were way above that.
One book has to be the most popular, even one that promotes religious hatred. But gay and Jews, what do they matter to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Please note your comparable accomplishments.
We have shown their most prolific book is often wrong?
You fervently practice the Religion of insulting and mocking Theists.
No one is insulting and mocking theists, we are just responding to their claims.
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