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I think of it less in terms of genetics than epigenetics, personality characteristics, and personal experiences. We all use intuition and data from our emotional responses in various ways, sometimes very successfully, sometimes not so much. I have come to the conclusion after long thought that humans are particularly prone to be deceived by seeing agency where it doesn't exist (agency inference), and by giving way too much credence to the probability / plausibility of things that they would really very much like or need to be true (confirmation bias).With regard to agency inference, this is just the faculty that causes us to tend to assume that bushes suddenly rustling in the dark of night in an unfamiliar area is some sort of existential threat -- a predator, an assailant, or even a ghost -- and run from it (or at least be very cautious about it) and ask more insightful questions later. This is a primal adaptation: no harm is done if the rustling proves to be just the wind or a squirrel, but if you're right and it's a danger of some kind, you might, in the extreme, die. So you take the cautious route.It's no different when wondering about the complex and beautiful universe. Now agency inference causes us to be more favorably disposed than is strictly justified by the notion that some agency "must" be "behind it all". The feeling pleases us not only because it's easy to see agency in things that are complex, large or ancient -- but because it relieves the psychological tension (and potential existential threat) of not knowing how it all came to be. Further, the explanation is, at least on the surface, very simple and reassuring, and therefore relatively easy to accept. It maps a large and intimidating and portentous question into a more manageable headspace: I, a puny human, make small things: tables, chairs, perhaps cars or houses. Some being like me, but larger, wiser, longer-lived and more powerful, must make really big things; some all powerful all knowing and eternal being must make the truly vast and ancient and incredibly complex things.Many people (and believe it or not, I say this without judgment) don't really need or want "proof", they just want an "explanation" that "feels" right. And some people sit better with uncertainty than others. To some, it is intolerable to simply say "I'm not sure" or "I don't know". They MUST have an explanation -- any explanation is better than none.If folks want to make various arguments from personal incredulity and false dichotomies about how everything either is created by their deity of choice or else it's a random "accident" -- I think they should do so to their heart's content. It is no skin off my back. I have no problem with people holding beliefs they can't or won't evidence to my satisfaction, so long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on me or anyone else who doesn't share them. In a perfect live-and-let-live world, it would all be good.Alas, in THIS imperfect world, unlike yourself, SOME theists cannot brook the slightest even passive lack of agreement with their views. Hilarity ensues.
post above demonstrates and is an example of bold above
How do I reconcile the two?
They are perfectly compatible for me— I ask and am baffled by the same — how does one experience the vast vast complex AMAZING nature of the universe and reconcile it to a lucky roll of the dice or mere chance? Science has brought me the greatest appreciation and recognition to a creative intelligence behind all this that I am comfortable calling “God.”
As I mentioned to Sonof, there is a problem with us using the word “creator” — a noun that sways us to
a human-like image of God.
Ok then. You're an atheist, but you're not an atheist. There's a couple of posters that claim the same thing. Surely you see the incongruous part of what you are saying? I don't buy it. It's either/or, not both. Are you saying Wiccan stuff?
So if you don't think it's a lucky roll of the dice what do you think? You're not making any sense. You didn't answer my question. How do you reconcile the two? They are polar opposites. I don't do riddles so *yawn*.
I told you what I think. I believe that the Universe in all of it's splendor has always been here. No need for a beginning or an end. A "lucky roll of the dice" was what you said, not me. I see, this was all a rouse.
So you not not wish for atheists to explain anything about atheism in a thread called ask an atheist?Of course mordant was explaining something in his view. What if anything did you contribute in the topic of the thread?
his post isn't about atheism. his post is about "why believers believe."
what he went to great lengths to describe and analyze and provided in depth detailed explanation for is "why believers believe." clearly it is something he wrestles with to the point that he has to explain it in great detail to himself and others.
atheists analyzing the mental state of believers, has nothing to do with atheism. just like believers analyzing in depth the mental state of atheists has nothing to do with any path of religion and spirituality they may choose to follow or practice.
the phrases i bolded from his own post apply to him: He "must have an explanation" why believers believe; he "just wants an explanation that feels right" for him, why believers believe; for him it "relieves the psychological tension" he clearly has around why believers believe; the explanation for him which he must have "is very simple and reassuring" and therefore it is "relatively easy to accept" for him, why believers believe. For him this simple reassuring explanation he provides himself to relieve his psychological tension around why believers believe, allows him to "map a large question" "into a more manageable headspace." And this allows him to "give credence to the plausibility of things" that he "would really very much like or need to be true." what is it that he "would really very much like or need to be true" regarding why believers believe? that believers are "prone to be deceived" and that believers "see that which is not there" and they "don't want proof."
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-25-2022 at 08:00 PM..
Ok then. You're an atheist, but you're not an atheist. There's a couple of posters that claim the same thing. Surely you see the incongruous part of what you are saying? I don't buy it. It's either/or, not both. Are you saying Wiccan stuff? So if you don't think it's a lucky roll of the dice what do you think? You're not making any sense. You didn't answer my question. How do you reconcile the two? They are polar opposites. I don't do riddles so *yawn*. I told you what I think. I believe that the Universe in all of it's splendor has always been here. No need for a beginning or an end. A "lucky roll of the dice" was what you said, not me. I see, this was all a rouse.
most people have no problem at all with it. Because no they are not opposites or polar opposites. They are complementary.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-25-2022 at 07:20 PM..
his post isn't about atheism. his post is about "why believers believe."
what he went to great lengths to describe and analyze and provided in depth detailed explanation for is "why believers believe." clearly it is something he wrestles with to the point that he has to explain it in great detail to himself and others.
atheists analyzing the mental state of believers, has nothing to do with atheism. just like believers analyzing in depth the mental state of atheists has nothing to do with any path of religion and spirituality they may choose to follow or practice.
the phrases i bolded from his own post apply to him: He "must have an explanation" why believers believe; he "just wants an explanation that feels right" for him, why believers believe; for him it "relieves the psychological tension" he clearly has around why believers believe; the explanation for him which he must have "is very simple and reassuring" and therefore it is "relatively easy to accept" for him, why believers believe. For him this simple reassuring explanation he provides himself to relieve his psychological tension around why believers believe, allows him to "map a large question" "into a more manageable headspace." And this allows him to "give credence to the plausibility of things" that he "would really very much like or need to be true." what is it that he "would really very much like or need to be true" regarding why believers believe? that believers are "prone to be deceived" and that believers "see that which is not there" and they "don't want proof."
Tzap, i am so glad you, mountainrose, golden, and a few others are here and posting. thank you.
Tzap, i am so glad you, mountainrose, golden, and a few others are here and posting. thank you.
Well...I must say...the Theist & Spiritual women on this board provide what is Divine, and what is fine, and what is of good report...and it enlightens me and lifts me up.
I already told you how Tzaph helped me in the past with her wise, uncompromising, and unwavering counsel.
You think she pulls these revilers up short...she snatched me up by the scruff of the neck and looked right into the core of my being, and told me in no uncertain terms what she saw was dark and corrupted. She told me to straighten up & fly right and get my Spiritual House in order. But I could feel the vibe of loving care & concern coming through as well.
It moved me...and I will be forever grateful.
Well...I must say...the Theist & Spiritual women on this board provide what is Divine, and what is fine, and what is of good report...and it enlightens me and lifts me up.
I already told you how Tzaph helped me in the past with her wise, uncompromising, and unwavering counsel.
You think she pulls these revilers up short...she snatched me up by the scruff of the neck and looked right into the core of my being, and told me in no uncertain terms what she saw was dark and corrupted. She told me to straighten up & fly right and get my Spiritual House in order. But I could feel the vibe of loving care & concern coming through as well.
It moved me...and I will be forever grateful.
i always remember the posts you would write about your mom, to this they day they move me deeply, and there is always a soft spot in my heart for you Goldie
i always remember the posts you would write about your mom, to this they day they move me deeply, and there is always a soft spot in my heart for you Goldie
My greatest blessing in life was getting the Mother I got (and my Father)...so, so fortunate.
I miss my parents so much I can hardly stand it.
My life was pretty much guaranteed to be great being born to them. And it was.
The nicest person I've ever known in my life just happened to be my Mother.
Motherhood is, in my opinion, the greatest human endeavor there is. And she loved it...loved being a Mom to her children and a Wife to my Dad.
Wonderful!
preach it brother.
with an amen and hallelujah for brother HD
You have to take quotes out of context, attack people and make assertions. One of us has the better MO.
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There's a couple of posters that claim the same thing. Surely you see the incongruous part of what you are saying? I don't buy it. It's either/or, not both. Are you saying Wiccan stuff? 
