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And you claim the Theists/Religious have "bad arguments"!
Again...you are like the blind person telling all the sighted people that they are in error about their ability to see things...and you base this on the pretense that you are unable to see anything, and they are not able to make you able to see.
This is argument from bad analogy - logical fallacy. The analogy is bad b/c it's useless, it does nothing to address the claim itself.
Quality of the claim is easy to establish. All you have to do is to ask for the argument it is based on and exam this argument, not to appeal to irrelevant analogies.
P.S.
I actually tried hard to be an atheist for a few years as it was so much easier!!
I am NOT saying atheists are lazy, but FOR ME atheism is the easier path…..
It's not a question of which is harder or easier. No matter. Though I have to admit I know of no reason to consider atheism a difficult path. The religious path didn't seem too hard to me either, back when I was on that path too once upon a time. None of which has determined WHY I am an atheist.
But do they reconcile their beliefs, because naturalism is the conclusion of science, and has been for over 2000 years. It is never a god did it. Just because many scientists are religious does not mean the science support their religious claims. They may just be presuming a god behind naturalism, as in the question "where do natural forces come from"?
But then that raises the question, where do God's properties come from? If you say they are inherent in God's existence, then we can argue natural forces are inherent in existence itself.
As I commented before, yes, this is the part of the rationale or equation where theists start to think about changing the subject...
Love how you phrased that! (Bolded)
As I stated upthread, my husband became an angry atheist due to horrible experiences with Catholicism. He couldn’t even say the word God without anger because he couldn’t separate out organized religion from God.
Decades later via some mysterious impulse (LOL ) my husband started going to Advaita Satsangs and developed a powerful meditation practice even doing weeklong silent retreats.
He came back from one retreat where he had the deep ONENESS experience and told me,
“ I believe I experienced what you keep calling God!!”
And now he has no anger or separation when we discuss God or spiritual experiences…..
My door/portal to God opened through a Jesus experience, his through Advaita….
Interesting witness, Rose. I can understand why your husband had issues with religion and God. I had no issues with God as an atheist. God and religion were completely irrelevant to my life but my encounter with the ONENESS in deep meditation changed all that instantly! I have zero doubt that it is God. It is what prompted my decades-long efforts to explain it to my intellect.
You nailed it.
Well, mostly — I didn’t “choose” or “assign” an intelligence to it — that would come via thoughts and analyzing.
Experiencing God is experiential— outside of thinking and words.
Someone who has never experienced love could argue there is no proof there’s such a phenomenon as love —it’s merely a product of protein synthesis.
But those of us who’ve EXPERIENCED love can surely say it exists — yes?
When your dog dies and you are left with the hole of grief that springs tears to your eyes — your grief takes you to your capacity to love and the experience is BEYOND words or needing evidence/proof that you loved your dog deeply. It’s experiential…..
I'm not so sure...
I have enjoyed the experience of much love in most if not all it's forms, but even if I had never known love, I would have to have my head where the sun don't shine all my life not to see the plain evidence it exists. I read books and watch movies for example. I see other people in the park. Even how our dog used to react when she saw us again once we got back home. I'd say there is lots of good evidence love exists, unlike I see with regard to the existence of a god, but of course the overwhelming evidence is that I have personally experienced love. Very much unlike my experiences that had me thinking there was a god.
That said, I've been to many a beautiful cathedral and seen many people praying, and I see this as evidence that lots of people believe in a god. Don't think this is good evidence a god actually exists however.
I have enjoyed the experience of much love in most if not all it's forms, but even if I had never known love, I would have to have my head where the sun don't shine all my life not to see the plain evidence it exists. I read books and watch movies for example. I see other people in the park. Even how our dog used to react when she saw us again once we got back home. I'd say there is lots of good evidence love exists, unlike I see with regard to the existence of a god, but of course the overwhelming evidence is that I have personally experienced love. Very much unlike my experiences that had me thinking there was a god.
That said, I've been to many a beautiful cathedral and seen many people praying, and I see this as evidence that lots of people believe in a god. Don't think this is good evidence a god actually exists however.
This is what my former state of mind was like prior to my encounter. Theodicy and the "red in tooth and claw" aspects of Reality made my efforts to explain to my intellect difficult indeed. At one point, I even contemplated that THIS Reality might actually just be some DREAM of God designed for each of us to provide a venue within which our developing and maturing Spirits could acquire the states of mind associated with what Jesus revealed about God's Holy Spirit. It suggested that none of it was real. I know crazy, right?
Then I kept asking "Why me!" But that meant that SOME of the participants (those experiencing the evil) might just be "extras" (like in the movies) and not even really exist. Even crazier, right? This reveals how difficult and traumatizing my trek to understanding was during those years! I eventually resolved those issues to my satisfaction without accepting those "irrationalizations" The whole theodicy controversy is actually the result of OUR imposition of the Omni's onto God. There is no reason any of them need to be true, though omnipresence is automatic given my panentheistic underlayment of Christianity.
This is argument from bad analogy - logical fallacy. The analogy is bad b/c it's useless, it does nothing to address the claim itself.
Quality of the claim is easy to establish. All you have to do is to ask for the argument it is based on and exam this argument, not to appeal to irrelevant analogies.
Yes...it is easy to establish.
For thousands of years 90% of the population has noted their ability to perceive God...just like people capable of sight noting that perceptive ability.
The Atheists (lack of God perceptive abilities) are like the blind (lack vision perceptive abilities)...but due to bias, the Atheists will acknowledge the veracity of claims the sighted make to the blind as per their perceptive ability, but do not acknowledge the veracity of the Theists claims to the Atheists about the perceptive abilities they have.
I've considered many such points of view even from scientists, and after reading Francis Collins' take as well, I am again disappointed with the same sort of explanation. .
And I respect your response and disappointment.
Apparently, you are disappointed because you are looking for an intellectual explanation that proves to you there’s God.
But you’ve already seen through your research that there is no clarifying explanation or proof that would ever satisfy your mind. I’ve mentioned repeatedly this isn’t in the realm of thinking, analyzing, it’s experiential.
So why are we going around and around with this? You will never trust those of us who’ve had the God experience, so what’s preventing you from just accepting our different experience in life?
What is driving you and at the core of this hunger/longing /motivation in you to prove there’s no God? Is it merely the need to be right, or is something knocking on your door or heart that makes you intellectually and emotionally uncomfortable?
I have no longing or motivation to prove to you there is a God — I’ve just been asked here many posts ago to explain the God experience and how it can reconcile with science.
Last edited by mountainrose; 08-26-2022 at 01:29 PM..
This is what my former state of mind was like prior to my encounter. Theodicy and the "red in tooth and claw" aspects of Reality made my efforts to explain to my intellect difficult indeed. At one point, I even contemplated that THIS Reality might actually just be some DREAM of God designed for each of us to provide a venue within which our developing and maturing Spirits could acquire the states of mind associated with what Jesus revealed about God's Holy Spirit. It suggested that none of it was real. I know crazy, right?
Then I kept asking "Why me!" But that meant that SOME of the participants (those experiencing the evil) might just be "extras" (like in the movies) and not even really exist. Even crazier, right? This reveals how difficult and traumatizing my trek to understanding was during those years! I eventually resolved those issues to my satisfaction without accepting those "irrationalizations" The whole theodicy controversy is actually the result of OUR imposition of the Omni's onto God. There is no reason any of them need to be true, though omnipresence is automatic given my panentheistic underlayment of Christianity.
Not crazy and of course we can always speculate we're actually all just living in something like a drop of water in a vast ocean beyond our perceptive abilities. Also of course there have been many people who claim to have had encounters, experiences, that convinced them in no uncertain terms they had made contact with a god. I know of a few religions based on such claims for example, but of course my present state of mind continues to struggle with the notion any of these claims are based in fact or truth. More likely in my opinion to be the ongoing tendency we humans have always had to generate all manner of notions, experiences and feelings about the gods, and believe in them with all our heart and soul. The Greeks seemed to be in touch with all their gods in the same way for example, with no equivocation.
Crazy? Define crazy...
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) my husband started going to Advaita Satsangs and developed a powerful meditation practice even doing weeklong silent retreats. 
