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Old 08-01-2022, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Middle America
10,963 posts, read 7,026,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I see a depth of spiritual experience in this post that is probably missed by most readers in this forum who have little to no spiritual discipline or experiences. It is more than possible to discern the source of spiritual experiences that emanate from our subconscious and those which are external. But it requires the development of significant discipline and rigor over the altered states attained. If you can alter the experiences in any way, you can be assured their origin is you and your subconscious. If you can NOT alter them, you can be assured they are external.


There are pitfalls on either side: 1) assuming something to be "of God", that is merely our own internal mental firings and activity (including at night, in dreaming). Or inversely 2) Encountering something that might be spiritual, but immediately writing it off as just mental wanderings, to be ignored or downplayed.

The middle land is the most fruitful area. If we can be receptive, but also not jump to quick categorizing (1 or 2), we avoid chasing something that needs to be dropped, and not overlook something important not to be missed.

The typical human way is to quickly resolve any matter, and make a quick judgement. But, lingering / pondering / meditating can give us a chance to see something different. The lazy traveler will look nowhere but on the path immediately ahead. The thoughtful travel will all around, above and below, to try and gauge the big picture.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 08-01-2022 at 02:38 PM..
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Old 08-02-2022, 09:33 AM
 
29,354 posts, read 9,541,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
regarding bold above
again, "conscious" is not the same as "conscience"
and "sub conscious" yes we have. no "sub-conscience"


for clarity in communicating ideas in this arena
I know the difference, and I meant conscience.

Perhaps I need further clarification as to your point...
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Old 08-02-2022, 09:41 AM
 
29,354 posts, read 9,541,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post


There are pitfalls on either side: 1) assuming something to be "of God", that is merely our own internal mental firings and activity (including at night, in dreaming). Or inversely 2) Encountering something that might be spiritual, but immediately writing it off as just mental wanderings, to be ignored or downplayed.

The middle land is the most fruitful area. If we can be receptive, but also not jump to quick categorizing (1 or 2), we avoid chasing something that needs to be dropped, and not overlook something important not to be missed.

The typical human way is to quickly resolve any matter, and make a quick judgement. But, lingering / pondering / meditating can give us a chance to see something different. The lazy traveler will look nowhere but on the path immediately ahead. The thoughtful travel will all around, above and below, to try and gauge the big picture.
Among the many influences that will ultimately determine our conclusion(s) along these lines, is our pre-established inclination to view these "mental wanderings" one way or another. All I'd like to point out is how easy it is for one inclined toward the belief in spiritual things, like a god for example, to feel these "wanderings" are something different compared to someone who is not so inclined.

I certainly can appreciate the feeling and thinking that can cause one to feel certain thoughts and feelings are beyond the usual. External rather than internal, and of course the spiritual person will always insist a non-spiritual person doesn't have the same ability to distinguish one from the other. This forever seems an ongoing underestimation that religious people have about non-religious people. As if many a non-religious person was not once a religious person who knows very well how those thoughts and feelings can depend on those different perspectives rather than what is actually going on in or outside our heads.
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Old 08-02-2022, 09:49 AM
 
Location: minnesota
15,797 posts, read 6,235,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Among the many influences that will ultimately determine our conclusion(s) along these lines, is our pre-established inclination to view these "mental wanderings" one way or another. All I'd like to point out is how easy it is for one inclined toward the belief in spiritual things, like a god for example, to feel these "wanderings" are something different compared to someone who is not so inclined.

I certainly can appreciate the feeling and thinking that can cause one to feel certain thoughts and feelings are beyond the usual. External rather than internal, and of course the spiritual person will always insist a non-spiritual person doesn't have the same ability to distinguish one from the other. This forever seems an ongoing underestimation that religious people have about non-religious people. As if many a non-religious person was not once a religious person who knows very well how those thoughts and feelings can depend on those different perspectives rather than what is actually going on in or outside our heads.
That other voice uses metaphor like Oak said. It doesn't tell me anything but shows me things. It also uses synchronicity, art, music and other people. Everything is a metaphor to it.
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Old 08-02-2022, 10:06 AM
 
29,354 posts, read 9,541,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
That other voice uses metaphor like Oak said. It doesn't tell me anything but shows me things. It also uses synchronicity, art, music and other people. Everything is a metaphor to it.
I'm not sure I'm following you either...

My sister is big on synchonicity. I'm really big on art, music and appreciating beauty of all sorts. I'm not sure I've ever thought this had much to do with the nature of our "internal dialogue" other than how all our thoughts about all such things are a function or result of that dialogue one way or another. My point is how we all explain, experience and/or translate that dialogue. As either something spiritual, for example, or not necessarily.

It's not all a metaphor to me in any case, but maybe I'm not understanding you as well as I would like either. Maybe you can further explain and I can do better tomorrow, because right now that other voice is again telling me it's time to move onto other things.

May everyone have a gr8 day!
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Old 08-02-2022, 10:07 AM
 
63,470 posts, read 39,755,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Among the many influences that will ultimately determine our conclusion(s) along these lines, is our pre-established inclination to view these "mental wanderings" one way or another. All I'd like to point out is how easy it is for one inclined toward the belief in spiritual things, like a god for example, to feel these "wanderings" are something different compared to someone who is not so inclined.

I certainly can appreciate the feeling and thinking that can cause one to feel certain thoughts and feelings are beyond the usual. External rather than internal, and of course the spiritual person will always insist a non-spiritual person doesn't have the same ability to distinguish one from the other. This forever seems an ongoing underestimation that religious people have about non-religious people. As if many a non-religious person was not once a religious person who knows very well how those thoughts and feelings can depend on those different perspectives rather than what is actually going on in or outside our heads.
What you are espousing applies to those who are religious prior to the experience. It does NOT apply to someone who is atheist, completely devoid of religious beliefs, and encounters an unmistakable external all-encompassing consciousness that is NOT remotely like his own!!
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Old 08-02-2022, 10:21 AM
 
Location: minnesota
15,797 posts, read 6,235,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I'm not sure I'm following you either...

My sister is big on synchonicity. I'm really big on art, music and appreciating beauty of all sorts. I'm not sure I've ever thought this had much to do with the nature of our "internal dialogue" other than how all our thoughts about all such things are a function or result of that dialogue one way or another. My point is how we all explain, experience and/or translate that dialogue. As either something spiritual, for example, or not necessarily.

It's not all a metaphor to me in any case, but maybe I'm not understanding you as well as I would like either. Maybe you can further explain and I can do better tomorrow, because right now that other voice is again telling me it's time to move onto other things.

May everyone have a gr8 day!
My inner voice was silenced and vilified by my religious upbringing so I had to rediscover it. It's a lot closer to remembering than understanding in my case. If someone hadn't had that done to them they probably wouldn't know what I mean because it was always there for them.
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Old 08-02-2022, 10:34 AM
 
29,354 posts, read 9,541,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What you are espousing applies to those who are religious prior to the experience. It does NOT apply to someone who is atheist, completely devoid of religious beliefs, and encounters an unmistakable external all-encompassing consciousness that is NOT remotely like his own!!
One more espousing before I sign off now...

I am an atheist who was religious prior to being an atheist. Check. Accordingly, I'm not sure I'm "completely devoid of religious beliefs," because I think some of those beliefs are still a part of me and/or my life today. Certainly still an influence if you will. I've already explained why I am an atheist in this forum too many times to count. Just like you have explained you are not at least as many times. We all know how this goes.

All I am again trying to point out is that depending on one's bias, inclinations and perspective along these lines, what might seem "unmistakable" for some, described as anyone might, including you, may or may not be unmistakably what we THINK it is. I've known the experience of that inclination and/or those sorts of conclusions, and all I'm saying is that this "internal dialogue" dynamic can lead to any number of a great variety of conclusions for reasons I think we can all appreciate, because we all know the experience of this internal dialogue.

What we make of it and those differences are the stuff of religion going back to the beginning, and I don't need your help to demonstrate how that same dynamic is continuing to lead different people to conclude all manner of different things as to the nature and source of that dialogue. There is not much debate or argument we all know this internal dialogue to be just that. Internal. What is external is a controversy of an entirely different sort, but also nothing new.

Just occurs to me that not only have I had the experience of once being religious, and how that internal dialogue was different for me then, but I've also had to deal with some pretty significant depression once upon in my life. Then too I learned how that internal dialogue can "take on a life of it's own," and as convincing or compelling that experience may be -- or unmistakable -- it's not necessarily based on reality. I know this truth all too well.

Thankfully, I'm in a much better place today with hopes of enjoying another good day today. Here's the same to you as I've really got to sign off now. Perhaps again tomorrow! Sincerely -- LM
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Old 08-02-2022, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,600 posts, read 4,889,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
That other voice uses metaphor like Oak said. It doesn't tell me anything but shows me things. It also uses synchronicity, art, music and other people. Everything is a metaphor to it.
My inner voice is me simply speaking in my head, with the exception that it only ever talks in one language at a time. Verbally I sometimes find myself mixing my languages, hence my wife's joke when she came back after our Covid break that I need to learn German.

I sometimes have an inner, conscious visual view, where I see what people say or write as mathematical concepts (usually scales of probability or Venn diagrams).

It is my subconscious that often communicates instinctively in metaphor and imagery, it rarely has a verbal component.
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Old 08-02-2022, 10:50 AM
 
Location: minnesota
15,797 posts, read 6,235,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
My inner voice is me simply speaking in my head, with the exception that it only ever talks in one language at a time. Verbally I sometimes find myself mixing my languages, hence my wife's joke when she came back after our Covid break that I need to learn German.

I sometimes have an inner, conscious visual view, where I see what people say or write as mathematical concepts (usually scales of probability or Venn diagrams).

It is my subconscious that often communicates instinctively in metaphor and imagery, it rarely has a verbal component.
I only see stuff in my head when I remember. I know some people have visual thoughts. My thoughts are words like a conversation. A couple of times it has used visual thoughts to communicate with me. The day it told me I needed to stop using alcohol it put on a whole show.

Now that you said that I do have visual thoughts when I plan or imagine. Never a Venn diagram tho.
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