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I view The Bible as a metaphorical and allegorical work of magnificent literary art.
And acknowlege that it is the most epic, prolific, and influential Book in human history.
But those that want to pose "Devils Advocate" type arguments...and Problem of Evil/Suffering type arguments based upon literal interpretations...just to bust on those that believe it on that basis...they will always lose.
The Bible is written so that the Book and its Deity are fully covered...if taken literally.
Certainly we can't dismiss the influence of the book. I suppose this isn't the right thread to get into more valid arguments to 'bust' on it as you say. I'll keep reading the threads to get more context on everyone's position here. That said, if you can point me to where your own arguments are that would be appreciated
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
That is why it only can be interpreted using the "mind of Christ" as revealed and demonstrated by Jesus in the narrative of the Cross.
So i'm assuming you have tapped into this where most others have not? Is this something that can be accomplished simply by reading text. Or do you need other vehicles to access?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
You are misunderstanding Goldie's argument, which is if you point out the bible can not literally be true regarding the flood, then you must accept what it literally says about the non-Pantheist Bible god must be true, therefore all arguments about the problem of evil are null and void.
Goldie does not believe his own argument, he just wants atheists to correct (once again) the obviously bad logic.
Do you not have a different version?
Thanks for clarifying. His position is clearer to me know. To answer your question about the bible, i'm not even sure which version I have. It has come down through the family i'd have to see. Is there one you recommend? This is really for my own interest to broaden my knowledge, not that I suspect that it will influence me to become a Christian.
"The Lord will keep you from all evil; he will keep your life." Psalm 121:7
"...nothing shall hurt you." Luke 10:19
"No evil shall be allowed to befall you" Psalm 91:10
If I hear you correctly, Michael you're saying that despite the promises the Bible makes to people about God protecting us from evil, the reality is that God doesn't protect us from evil; people die doing God's work. They're not afforded any protection at all.
It all just seems so random and arbitrary. What good are the Bible's promises?
I have a tendency to take things literally, so it is lavish promises such as you quote that were the proximal cause of my apostasy. "Hm, evil is befalling me, despite that it was promised that it would not." And I was not SO literal as to not allow that some small "evils" could befall me either because they were inconsequential or I might be mistaking a learning opportunity (for example) for "evil". But I am talking about epic, existentially threatening evils. The death of loved ones, the foreclosure of hopes, dreams and aspirations, things like that.
Another good one is "god blesses the righteous and confounds the wicked". Good luck with that one!
Well, look. Sooner or later everyone is going to die in some way or another and there's no shortage of ways in which a person can die. For that reason you can't just take any of the biblical promises about being protected from evil or death as saying that you will never die. From a biblical perspective, it would seem to me that until God wants to take a person out of this life he will be protected from death.
As for the pastor who got electrocuted while performing a baptism . . . maybe God has a sense of humor. Or maybe the guy just made a bad choice by handling a live microphone while he was standing in water and it cost him his life. Maybe it was just his time to go.
Since the Bible also acknowledges that we will all ultimately die, and that this is not an evil in that it is a gateway to a better reality in the afterlife, I don't think anyone taking these promises literally is overreaching.
My wife and son dying was not the problem. It was the interruption of the "proper" story arc. If they had died of a good old age, it would have been no problem. It was the tragic, "out of turn" nature of their deaths that was the problem. I seriously doubt that ANYONE would expect to live forever based on being protected from evil. Or to even expect never to be disappointed or frustrated or whatever. I hoarded my poker chips for when I really needed them. I never asked god to find my car keys. I asked him to keep my loved ones healthy and safe.
OMG, I get so sick of these types of questions. Is everyone God loves supposed to live forever? Don't you get that it's not death, it's graduation? Human beings can't presume to know or understand the plan of the creator of the entire universe. Just stop it.
Exactly. Death in itself is not the objection. See my previous post.
Ah yes, it is The Golden Rule that is flawed. Another thread.
One of your arguments in this forum seems to be that the majority of humans for 2 centuries have believed in a supreme being, and therefore it must be true.
The concept the Golden Rule is spread through various cultures that reflect a god-based culture or not a gold-based culture....and yet the Golden Rule is not true.
You ought to take a little time and study the concept of 'principles'.
One of your arguments in this forum seems to be that the majority of humans for 2 centuries have believed in a supreme being, and therefore it must be true.
The concept the Golden Rule is spread through various cultures that reflect a god-based culture or not a gold-based culture....and yet the Golden Rule is not true.
You ought to take a little time and study the concept of 'principles'.
You first paragraph is false.
The Golden Rule is neither true nor false. That is a false dichotomy. It is flawed, not applicable in a multi-culture diverse world.
You seem very vested in this Biblical verse. Why do you then routinely and vehemently attack all other Biblical belief? What is so special about this. I am puzzled why the Atheist community seem so vexed with me and my post. I would have thought otherwise. Did i touch some sacred nerve? Very curious.
So during a baptism -- during that prayer, during that holy ceremony where god is supposedly infusing the subject with the holy spirit -- god is not present.
Hmmmm.
Simply worthless.
God apparently got confused over what he was supposed to infuse the pastor with and infused him with electricity instead of the holy spirit. I've heard Christians say that getting filled with the holy spirit feels like electricity going through your body. I guess when you touch a live mike standing in a tub of water and end up on the ceiling you pretty much confirm it's true.
To answer your question about the bible, i'm not even sure which version I have. It has come down through the family i'd have to see. Is there one you recommend? This is really for my own interest to broaden my knowledge, not that I suspect that it will influence me to become a Christian.
As a German raised as a Greek Orthodox, I do not think my recommendations will help you.
Perhaps it is better to ask in the Christian forum.
Of course, God did not write the Bible. God inspired it. The [problem with inspiration is it has to be interpreted using the existing mindset and beliefs of the receiver. Everything in the Bible was received and interpreted by primitive minds. That makes applying a modern mindset to it problematic. That is why it only can be interpreted using the "mind of Christ" as revealed and demonstrated by Jesus in the narrative of the Cross.
But that's the whole problem. History has pretty much proven conclusively that there never was a "Jesus of Nazareth, son of God who died on the cross for your sins". That's just a fable of yet another man-god among many men-gods circulating through the Mediterranean at that time. Historians believe the Jesus myth was likely based on a real Jewish anti-Roman zealot who was crucified for sedition against Rome and tossed into a hole with a bunch of other Jewish criminals and covered over. Afterward, various stories about a man-god who was crucified started circulating in the area, not much different from stories about Romulus, another man-god. Look at the legend of Romulus and see how similar it is to Jesus. And remember Romulus came first:
* Age 35 when he miraculously ascended to Olympus
* Son of Rhea who had been miraculously impregnated by the god Mars.
* Assassinated by the Roman senate vs Jesus condemned to death by Jewish Sanhedrin
* Earth darkened when Romulus killed
I mean the list of similarities goes on an on. Anyone would have to be out of their minds not to accept that the legend of Jesus is just the legend of Romulus and other man-gods rewritten and given a Jewish flavor.
This is why we can read things like Psalm 91:
The LORD is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.
Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.
He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.
A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but [harm] will not come near you.
You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.
If you make the Most High your dwelling-- even the LORD, who is my refuge--then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.
And we realize Biblical stuff like this doesn't carry a nickel's worth of truth. It's all just flowery poetry that we can find in dozens of other holy books but there's not a bit of supernatural power behind the words like Christians love to attribute to it.
And so it wouldn't be surprising that a minister would climb into a tub full of water with a live mike nearby and sincerely believe nothing harmful would happen to him because of a silly promise made in the Bible--a promise that obviously turns out to be not worth the paper it's printed on.
Problem is if it's in the Bible and as you say the Bible is the 'inspired" word of God then shouldn't the God of the Bible at least try to stand behind promises made in his name for the sake of the people who believe in him and his promises?
That is, unless the God of the Bible doesn't even exist.
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Or maybe the guy just made a bad choice by handling a live microphone while he was standing in water and it cost him his life. Maybe it was just his time to go.
