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Sure, sure. Taking it out of context is a very commonly used expression for 'I don't know how to answer that'. I used to do it too. I'm having a little trouble tonight holding my sarcastic tongue so bear with me.
Oh I have no doubt that bible scholars agree, it's just the general population and different sects of Christianity that can't agree on anything. Well, take you for instance. I was taught KJV only-ism, and you would be a heretic because you have desecrated the only 'true' version of the bible. My family really dislike Catholics, I guess that's why I married one. I do not feel that way at all about Catholicism or any other religion.
[/b]Hey that rhymes! Sounds kinda like Dr. Suess;
Look at me!
Look at me!
Look at me NOW!
It is fun to have fun
But you have to know how.”
Sorry. *hangs head in shame*
But seriously, I used to believe that too, or at least I tried to make myself believe it. It just didn't work.
I really don't know much about the Catholic bible or Catholicism in general, even though I was married to a Catholic. As someone else said here, he was an "inactive Catholic" so I never went to a Catholic church with him. I would have, no problem. When I was small I did attend a Catholic service, It's one of the most vivid memories I have. I loved the drama, rituals and just seeing something other than people running up and down aisles, speaking in tongues. Yep.
Funny you mentioned fables, I was looking up Aesop's Fables today, I learned new things so that's always good. I think the bible was heavily "borrowed" and influenced by other cultures but I can say one thing, the Jesus character was an amazing teacher. That's if he really existed or if he was metaphorical. Either way, mostly good teachings. Words to live by. Just like Buddha or Vishnu. Morals are important. And decency.
Ok, fair enough. It is most definitely cryptic though. I mean, you can't read Revelation without having a WHOLE lot of questions. Way more questions than answers. We all seem to be searching for answers, but I don't think the bible has them.
As an agnostic atheist, I am perfectly fine not knowing a damn thing about whether or not there is a god. You have your book, I have my solid and firm non-belief. I say that because we all need different things. I needed to free my mind. Blossom and grow. I'm sorry, I am not knocking your beliefs, it just wasn't for me.
Yes, and I told Phet is was a really good idea. I guess we need to start with the Garden of Eden, since it's the thread title.
Haha you can't erase pen! I think my Mother still has his study bible.
I very much like this post. It reminds me of Ilene, not a reversed DOTL.
Thanks mens for going to the scriptures as this is where people reading the scriptures go wrong in regards to the creation account.
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Originally Posted by mensaguy
I'm not a scientist, but I know a little about how some things work. As the universe was forming, masses of gas were flung out from larger masses. ending up as stars, with remnants eventually rotating around stars, forming planets, moons, and asteroids.
Basically the big bang scenario. I have no issues with that scenario, so we can agree with the science on this part.
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The first Genesis creation story says the earth was formed before the sun and moon were formed. It also says light was created before the sun. Knowing these things, the only logical conclusion is that the Genesis story cannot be literally the way the earth was formed, so it most be understood allegorically. It is not possible for it to be literally true.
This is the way YEC and most people read and understand the scriptures. however lets take a look at those scriptures.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
When does scripture say the heaven and the earth were created? answer: in the beginning.
How long the beginning is we are not told. It could very well be billions of years.
As heaven is first in order it would indicate the heavens was created before the earth just as science tells us.
Can we have heaven without the sun, moon and stars? No for they are that which make up heaven.
Thus when God created the heaven it included all that is within them.
The Hebrew scholar Rashi is in agreement with this as when speaking of the sun, moon and stars he say.
They were created on the first day
Thus when God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
Scientifically this would be when the sun came out of its proto phrase, and became the sun as we know it today.
So what do we do with the scriptures that when speaking of the 4th days says.
Lets look at them.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
this is the part most seem to come to the conclusion that the scriptures and what we know of science come into conflict. When surface reading, which is what most do, it seems to say God created the sun, moon and stars of the 4th day.
However that is not what they are saying.
The Hebrew word for create, as when God creates something is bara which is the word used here
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
however in verse 16 it does not use the word bara, instead the Hebrew word used is asa and has a different meaning then bara.
Asa has to do with fashioning or adorning that which was bara.
At Christmas time many people get a tree, put the tree in their house and then proceed to adorn it with decorations.
This is the same thing that God is doing with the sun, moon and stars.
They were already created created/bara, and now God is setting them in place as adornment over the earth for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.
Scientifically this setting could be the gravitation boundaries that hold them in place.
The Hebrew scholar Rashi says concerning verse 16
They were created on the first day, and on the fourth day, He commanded them to be suspended in the sky, and likewise, all the creations of heaven and earth were created on the first day, and each one was fixed in its proper place on the day that was decreed upon it.
Rashi
Born, February 22, 1040. Troyes, France ; Died, July 13, 1105(1105-07-13) (aged 65).
obviously live long before the scientific revolution of our day.
I point this out because mikes scholars say the Hebrews would not have understood the cosmos because they do not have today understand of them. Well obviously Rashi did not only understand the cosmos but had an understanding of how the cosmos and scripture are in line with each other.
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As with many things having to do with the Bible, there are thousands of different interpretations. Understanding that it is allegorical doesn't make a person wrong, bad, or evil.
I have never said it does. I look at scripture much the same way the Jews do, through PaRDeS,
Peshat: often inaccurately translated as literal, it comes from the root which means simple, although peshat is sometimes anything but simple! Peshat correctly means the intended, explicit meaning.
Remez: alluded meaning (reading between the lines). Remez in modern Hebrew means hint. Traditionally, remez referred to methods such as gezera shava (equivalent language implying equivalent meaning) and gematria (word-number values)
Derash: Homiletical or interpretative meaning. The word 'midrash' is from the same root. The drash is an interpretation that is not explicit in the text.
Sod: (lit. secret). The mystical or esoteric meaning.
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All I'm saying is that the story in Genesis 1 cannot be literally true. That has met your challenge to prove that "the creation account and science do not agree."
did it? I think the Jews have a better understanding of their own language then we do and as Hebrew scholar Rashi pointed out our English translations of their language is that which causes the confusion when reading the suffice of the scripture.
That is only YOUR interpretation, all scripture is up for debate and scrutiny because of the allegorical and metaphorical nature of it. One cannot just take a random scripture and simply 'decide' how to use it to fit their argument. No real study of it or thought put into it, it's just however it fits YOUR interpretation and whether it's useful or not to call it real or metaphorical. That is manipulation and causes these mud-slinging contests.
.
Read my reply to mens.
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The slimy serpent tale is obviously not real, serpents don't talk. That's not the type of scripture I'm talking about. But, you'd be wrong if you think that there aren't bible thumpers who think the entire bible is literal. So they actually believe there was a talking serpent. When there are so many ways to interpret scripture don't you think that if there was a god, instead of writing in riddles, it would have made itself very clear in it's own instruction manual? There would be no need for all this bickering and disagreement. Seems like your god likes controversy and watching people make fools of themselves
You have to look past the words to what the words are in reference to. Man has a dual nature, one of those natures is the serpent, called the devil and satan. That is why Jesus is represented as a serpent on the cross, that is why Jesus called Peter satan etc. that is why Paul speaks so much about crucifying our old man.
About your riddles comment. Scripture tells us that there is a vail over the OT even to this day, which can only be taken away in Christ.
In other words NS unless one takes the OT to Christ they cannot see past the vail.
Why use the izone layer but not the stratosphere or toposphere or any other actual layer ofvthe atmosphere.
The problem is cashing in on a popular term and forcing it to fit scripture. If you do that then your Bible can mean anything you want.
There is a hole or two in theozone layer so now it is not a dome or its a broken dome. But if you feel it makes your Bible true go for it.
There are seven or eight recognized layers of the atmosphere by science and the ozone one and grabbed onto one of the smallest layer for your dome because it is in the news more than the other ones. That is the reason I challenged you on this claim and it has nothing to do with literal meaning or raining cats and dogs but a lack of knowledge of the atmosphere. Anyone of the seven layers could be better juatified as your dome but none of them are domes either. But you have heard about the ozone layer so it is the Bibles dome?
Scripture speak of at least 3 heavens so i have no problem if someone thinks a different layer is the dome spoken of.
I did not use the Ozone layer because it is the one I know of, stop trying to tell my why I use something. I used the Ozone layer because it was created Around 600 million years ago and land life first appeared around 420 million years ago.
Egyptian belief concerning the shape of the world; Read it and weep. Oh, I mean read it and go 'nuh uh.'
Shape of the world
The air god Shu, assisted by other gods, holds up Nut, the sky, as Geb, the earth, lies beneath.
In Egyptian belief, the disorder that predates the ordered world exists beyond the world as an infinite expanse of formless water, personified by the god Nun. The earth, personified by the god Geb, is a flat piece of land over which arches the sky, usually represented by the goddess Nut. The two are separated by the personification of air, Shu. The sun god Ra is said to travel through the sky, across the body of Nut, enlivening the world with his light. At night Ra passes beyond the western horizon into the Duat, a mysterious region that borders the formlessness of Nun. At dawn he emerges from the Duat in the eastern horizon.[54]
The nature of the sky and the location of the Duat are uncertain. Egyptian texts variously describe the nighttime sun as traveling beneath the earth and within the body of Nut. The Egyptologist James P. Allen believes that these explanations of the sun's movements are dissimilar but coexisting ideas. In Allen's view, Nut represents the visible surface of the waters of Nun, with the stars floating on this surface. The sun, therefore, sails across the water in a circle, each night passing beyond the horizon to reach the skies that arch beneath the inverted land of the Duat.[55] Leonard H. Lesko, however, believes that the Egyptians saw the sky as a solid canopy and described the sun as traveling through the Duat above the surface of the sky, from west to east, during the night.[56] Joanne ******, modifying Lesko's model, argues that this solid sky is a moving, concave dome overarching a deeply convex earth. The sun and the stars move along with this dome, and their passage below the horizon is simply their movement over areas of the earth that the Egyptians could not see. These regions would then be the Duat.[57]
The fertile lands of the Nile Valley (Upper Egypt) and Delta (Lower Egypt) lie at the center of the world in Egyptian cosmology. Outside them are the infertile deserts, which are associated with the chaos that lies beyond the world.[58] Somewhere beyond them is the horizon, the akhet. There, two mountains, in the east and the west, mark the places where the sun enters and exits the Duat.[59]
Foreign nations are associated with the hostile deserts in Egyptian ideology. Foreign people, likewise, are generally lumped in with the "nine bows", people who threaten pharaonic rule and the stability of maat, although peoples allied with or subject to Egypt may be viewed more positively.[60] For these reasons, events in Egyptian mythology rarely take place in foreign lands. While some stories pertain to the sky or the Duat, Egypt itself is usually the scene for the actions of the gods. Often, even the myths set in Egypt seem to take place on a plane of existence separate from that inhabited by living humans, although in other stories, humans and gods interact. In either case, the Egyptian gods are deeply tied to their home land.[58]
Mike we all know that the Babylonians, Egyptians etc have their own creation account but what does that have to do with the Hebrew creation account? It is obvious that the Hebrew had their own belief on creation that has nothing to do with pagan beliefs.
Your scholars are simply putting pagan beliefs into the Jewish belief of creation. they are all the time saying they made mistakes because they did not understand how the cosmos worked. I showed that your scholars are wrong because the Egyptian most definitely understood the movements of the heavens. So obviously as the Egyptians understood the movement of the heavens they did not believe the sun, moon and stars were STUCK in a literal dome.
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And Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible. He may have written parts of it but certainly not all of it. And evidence leads many or most scholars (yes, there's that dirty word again - scholars ) to believe that the first 11 chapters of Genesis were written during the Babylonian captivity in the 5th century BC
There you go again letting your scholars led you about with bit and bridle. Jesus says Moses gave them the Torah and I will take his word over your scholars.
Mike we all know that the Babylonians, Egyptians etc have their own creation account but what does that have to do with the Hebrew creation account? It is obvious that the Hebrew had their own belief on creation that has nothing to do with pagan beliefs.
Your scholars are simply putting pagan beliefs into the Jewish belief of creation. they are all the time saying they made mistakes because they did not understand how the cosmos worked. I showed that your scholars are wrong because the Egyptian most definitely understood the movements of the heavens. So obviously as the Egyptians understood the movement of the heavens they did not believe the sun, moon and stars were STUCK in a literal dome.
There you go again letting your scholars led you about with bit and bridle. Jesus says Moses gave them the Torah and I will take his word over your scholars.
I've already told you what the Egyptian and Babylonian creation accounts have to do with the Hebrew creation accounts. And so have ''my scholars.'' So why ask me again?
And no, you have not shown me that ''my scholars'' are wrong, and I replied to your argument that just because the Egyptians understood the movement of the planets it doesn't mean that they didn't believe that a solid dome covered the earth. They believed that the sun (which was the god Ra) sailed across the sky in a boat for crying out loud.
I've already told you what the Egyptian and Babylonian creation accounts have to do with the Hebrew creation accounts. And so have ''my scholars.'' So why ask me again?
.
I know what you and your scholars believe and it has nothing to do with the Jewish understanding of the creation account. I showed the Egyptians knew of the movements of the heavens so obviously could not believe that the sun, moon and stars were stuck in a solid dome. I also showed via Rashi how the Jews understood their own scriptures which has nothing to do with pagan myths.
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And no, you have not shown me that ''my scholars'' are wrong, and I replied to your argument that just because the Egyptians understood the movement of the planets it doesn't mean that they didn't believe that a solid dome covered the earth. They believed that the sun (which was the god Ra) sailed across the sky in a boat for crying out loud.
How can you say the Egyptians knew of the movements of the heavens and yet maintain they believed the sun,moon and stars were stuck in a solid dome? It is illogical
And how can ra sail across the sky when it is stuck in a solid dome? Again your stance is illogical
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I'll take solid scholarship. That Moses did not write all of the Torah is obvious from the Torah itself
You call what you presented Solid scholarship and take that nonsense over what Jesus tells us. Just what parts of the bible do you agree with?
I know what you and your scholars believe and it has nothing to do with the Jewish understanding of the creation account. I showed the Egyptians knew of the movements of the heavens so obviously could not believe that the sun, moon and stars were stuck in a solid dome. I also showed via Rashi how the Jews understood their own scriptures which has nothing to do with pagan myths.
How can you say the Egyptians knew of the movements of the heavens and yet maintain they believed the sun,moon and stars were stuck in a solid dome? It is illogical
And how can ra sail across the sky when it is stuck in a solid dome? Again your stance is illogical
You call what you presented Solid scholarship and take that nonsense over what Jesus tells us. Just what parts of the bible do you agree with?
You have no idea what you are talking about. An ancient people can and did believe things that we today know better than to believe. Well not all of us. It was already explained to you in the Wiki article that I posted how the ancient Egyptians could believe that the planets, sun, and moon could do that. You refuse to accept it.
And now you won't even believe the Egyptians themselves when they depicted the sun god Ra (the sun) sailing across the sky in a boat. We have Egyptian pictographs which show Ra in his boat sailing through the sky.
The Egyptian sun god Ra was said to sail his boat across the sky by day.
You have no idea what you are talking about. An ancient people can and did believe things that we today know better than to believe. Well not all of us. It was already explained to you in the Wiki article that I posted how the ancient Egyptians could believe that the planets, sun, and moon could do that. You refuse to accept it.
And now you won't even believe the Egyptians themselves when they depicted the sun god Ra (the sun) sailing across the sky in a boat. We have Egyptian pictographs which show Ra in his boat sailing through the sky.
The Egyptian sun god Ra was said to sail his boat across the sky by day.
And actually there was variation among the Egyptians themselves regarding the matter of creation.
You keep missing the point mike. How can a boat sail across the sky if it is STUCK in a solid dome.
My argument is not against their belief in ra sailing a boat across the sky, the argument is against the Egyptians belief that ra was stuck in a solid dome. It should be obvious that if they believed ra sailed across the sky they did not believe ra was stuck in a solid dome.
You keep missing the point mike. How can a boat sail across the sky if it is STUCK in a solid dome.
My argument is not against their belief in ra sailing a boat across the sky, the argument is against the Egyptians belief that ra was stuck in a solid dome. It should be obvious that if they believed ra sailed across the sky they did not believe ra was stuck in a solid dome.
No, you do. This was explained to you in post 135 in the Wiki article concerning Egyptian beliefs. Try reading it this time. The beliefs of an ancient people don't have to make any sense to us. They believed what they believed. And how can you say that the Egyptians had a scientific view of the heavens and then say you aren't against the Egyptian belief of Ra (the sun god/the sun) sailing across the sky in a boat?
You know what? I've already spent way too much time on this. You're one of those 'the Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it' people. So just go on believing what you believe and deny and reject the solid scholarship. I'm done with you.
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) to believe that the first 11 chapters of Genesis were written during the Babylonian captivity in the 5th century BC
