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I do have one catholic friend who believes that as soon as the wafer is placed in his mouth it literally turns to flesh, and as soon as he drinks the wine (or grape juice) it immediately turns into blood.
Coming from my perspective I can't tell you how silly that is. It's obvious that your catholic friend hasn't had a good piece of flesh or a fresh glass of blood lately.
Coming from my perspective I can't tell you how silly that is. It's obvious that your catholic friend hasn't had a good piece of flesh or a fresh glass of blood lately.
Oh, I agree with you completely. He also obsesses about confession, sometimes going multiple times a week.
In that other thread there seems a lot of people who quote all kinds of scriptures from all kinds of sources. Are they ALL the Word of God?
Just like me, it seems people believe any old thing they want to, and take "an authority" as being someone who or some book which they believe has the right idea and which aligns with their beliefs.
In that other thread there seems a lot of people who quote all kinds of scriptures from all kinds of sources. Are they ALL the Word of God?
Just like me, it seems people believe any old thing they want to, and take "an authority" as being someone who or some book which they believe has the right idea and which aligns with their beliefs.
How is this relevant to your search for enlightenment?
Your thread afforded me the opportunity to research the significance of incense in Catholic services.
Why does a Catholic priest sometimes carry a smoking pot?
Answer: The incense symbolizes prayer, which rises heavenward towards God. In the traditional Latin rite of Mass, the altar is incensed, intimating that this is a sacred place. It is also an imitation of the early temple practices as well as an allusion to the book of Revelation where incense burns before the altar of God. https://www.answers.com/Q/Why_does_a..._a_smoking_pot
How is this relevant to your search for enlightenment?
Your thread afforded me the opportunity to research the significance of incense in Catholic services.
Why does a Catholic priest sometimes carry a smoking pot?
Answer: The incense symbolizes prayer, which rises heavenward towards God. In the traditional Latin rite of Mass, the altar is incensed, intimating that this is a sacred place. It is also an imitation of the early temple practices as well as an allusion to the book of Revelation where incense burns before the altar of God. https://www.answers.com/Q/Why_does_a..._a_smoking_pot
OK, then I am happy this thread did that for you.
The thing is - I am also quite happy with accepting an authority of my choosing on a subject, since I understand it is all about beliefs at that point. The science-type believes that something is proven because his credentialed authority says so. The religious person believes his God is real because his religion/priest/book says so. Some other people believe the government because some government scientists paid by the government says it is real or valid.
For the faithful, it might symbolize prayer, but for others it is just (nice?) smelly smoke. In days gone by, incense was probably a fumigator/antibacterial/antiviral/etc because the laity were so unwashed and carried all kinds of diseases, so it helped to keep the environment fairly sanitary and disease-free too. Much like sage for clearing a house of ghosties.
Enlightenment is for me all about learning as much as I can about the spiritual world and since I believe there is so much which comes under that heading, I delve into the 'woo' part of life too. Since Pagans and witches rely on many rituals to enhance intention and manifest stuff, I was wondering if orthodox religions originally manifested things too. From what people say on this thread, it appears they do not and their rituals are just a way to make the experience more meaningful for the participants of the service.
I really wonder about the documents the Vatican has amassed inside the library. And..before anyone says, not ALL of the documents are available for scholars to study.
We used to frequent a Sunday Afternoon Tridentine Latin Mass before we had kids. We both thoroughly enjoyed it The Homily was in English but all prayers songs and the readings were all in Latin It was a beautiful service. Now they had two different priests The older Italian one really got into it. HE would speak slowly, or chant slowly and put a lot of feeling and emotion into what he was doing. The other one seemed to mumble through it, racing even, trying to get through it as fast as he possibly could.
Now understanding that the Priest must read the Mass exactly as written, as though the words or saying the words invokes the presence of a deity, then by logic said deity should appear either way. However, what I noticed is that the older priest made the ritual so poetic and so aesthetic that the beautiful service seemed to bring more interest and more participation.
On the other hand, when it was a race to the end, it seemed like it was more of a meaningless obligation, "Well, I went to Mass so God can write it in his attendance book"
We have encountered similarities in the Episcopal church. In the USA there are seemingly fewer "High churches" left, where the mass is chanted, incense is used, the music is formal. What they are being replaced by is the "Low church" wherein the mass is read, quickly, more emphasis placed on a longer sermon and a race to get through the Rite is seen. I remember this one priest who seemed like an auctioneer. Imagine hearing this read by an auctioneer.....
Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
Holy and gracious Father: In your infinite love you made us
for yourself, and, when we had fallen into sin and become
subject to evil and death, you, in your mercy, sent Jesus
Christ, your only and eternal Son, to share our human
nature, to live and die as one of us, to reconcile us to you, the
God and Father of all.
He stretched out his arms upon the cross, and offered himself,
in obedience to your will, a perfect sacrifice for the whole
world.
On the night he was handed over to suffering and death, our
Lord Jesus Christ took bread; and when he had given thanks
to you, he broke it, and gave it to his disciples, and said, "Take,
eat: This is my Body, which is given for you. Do this for the
remembrance of me."
___________________________
Now maybe he was having a turtle head poking through or something, or wanted to get home before kickoff , but racing through a ritual fails to allow anyone an opportunity to appreciate the inherent beauty of it.
Like running through the Met, looking at all the artwork but not taking any time to enjoy or expereince each piece for waht it is.
Not what I would do but some do not like rituals and will get through them , if they have to, as fast as they can.
We used to frequent a Sunday Afternoon Tridentine Latin Mass before we had kids. We both thoroughly enjoyed it The Homily was in English but all prayers songs and the readings were all in Latin It was a beautiful service. Now they had two different priests The older Italian one really got into it. HE would speak slowly, or chant slowly and put a lot of feeling and emotion into what he was doing. The other one seemed to mumble through it, racing even, trying to get through it as fast as he possibly could.
Now understanding that the Priest must read the Mass exactly as written, as though the words or saying the words invokes the presence of a deity, then by logic said deity should appear either way. However, what I noticed is that the older priest made the ritual so poetic and so aesthetic that the beautiful service seemed to bring more interest and more participation.
On the other hand, when it was a race to the end, it seemed like it was more of a meaningless obligation, "Well, I went to Mass so God can write it in his attendance book"
We have encountered similarities in the Episcopal church. In the USA there are seemingly fewer "High churches" left, where the mass is chanted, incense is used, the music is formal. What they are being replaced by is the "Low church" wherein the mass is read, quickly, more emphasis placed on a longer sermon and a race to get through the Rite is seen. I remember this one priest who seemed like an auctioneer. Imagine hearing this read by an auctioneer.....
Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
Holy and gracious Father: In your infinite love you made us
for yourself, and, when we had fallen into sin and become
subject to evil and death, you, in your mercy, sent Jesus
Christ, your only and eternal Son, to share our human
nature, to live and die as one of us, to reconcile us to you, the
God and Father of all.
He stretched out his arms upon the cross, and offered himself,
in obedience to your will, a perfect sacrifice for the whole
world.
On the night he was handed over to suffering and death, our
Lord Jesus Christ took bread; and when he had given thanks
to you, he broke it, and gave it to his disciples, and said, "Take,
eat: This is my Body, which is given for you. Do this for the
remembrance of me."
___________________________
Now maybe he was having a turtle head poking through or something, or wanted to get home before kickoff , but racing through a ritual fails to allow anyone an opportunity to appreciate the inherent beauty of it.
Like running through the Met, looking at all the artwork but not taking any time to enjoy or expereince each piece for waht it is.
Not what I would do but some do not like rituals and will get through them , if they have to, as fast as they can.
I had a good ritual/short sermon priest for about 5 years. His 5-minute homilies always contained something of interest and all ended with some version of "and that's how we can show we love God by loving our neighbor. He had been a Catholic priest in his youth, left by 30, had a marketing career, and then returned to become our-part-time Episcopal priest in retirement until he and his wife both had health issues.
His replacement is a nice man, but if you suffer from insomnia, just listen to one of his dragged-out sermons. He doesn't rush through the Eucharist, but there is no feeling in the way he presents it.
Further his sermons are all of that style that really annoys me: a lecture based on "We think that..." or "We as humans do this or that". I don't know what "we" he is talking about, but most of the time, I could not relate.
Anyway, haven't been for two years so I guess I shouldn't complain.
During Easter a priest will often sprinkle his congregation with water at Mass, recalling their baptism.
Instead of performing the normal Penitential Rite, a priest can choose to sprinkle his congregation at Mass with water.
On another note, to those who subscribe to water baptism, do you think a baptism performed using stagnant water is as valid as a "living water" baptism? Living water is active, running water such as springs and rivers naturally contains electrolytes. Obviously, there are safety risks associated with any baptism, but the point is the water quality used during the rituals.
Did you know the act of baptismal water submersion is considered a burial?
Colossians 2:12
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. https://www.biblestudytools.com/topi...about-baptism/
The answer could be different for different people. Some people may be going through the motions while thinking of something else. Some people may be actively participating in the rituals.
There cannot possibly be a one-size-fits-all response to your question.
For example, the ritual of the Eucharist. Some people may participate in the ritual and feel a oneness with God and the others who participated in the ritual. Others may feel nothing but an obligation to perform the ritual because of family or social reasons. One person may experience both feelings on different days.
Do you have any particular ritual in mind that you suspect may have been lost in the mists of time?
I agree about the rituals thing.
Things like the Eucharist vary considerably, depending on the day.
But it does keep members in the fold, at least as far as Catholics and other “high church” denominations go.
Low church Protestants have largely abandoned such practices, and accuse Catholics etc of using them as an underhanded tactic.
Even fairly benign rituals like Ash Wednesday and the ashes on the head thing, get right under their skin, as “taking away from the glory of God”, and focusing on man and man-made rituals.
Of course that is their opinion, which I vehemently reject.
I’ve also been to 2 and a half hour Pentecostal worship services, and their tactic of getting everyone worked up into a frenzy of singing and dancing, spontaneous speaking in tongues and being “slain in the spirit” etc, is quite extraordinary too.
All of this may at first appear chaotic and unscripted, but the service still follows a ritual that is a repeating pattern.
And it keeps the members coming back for more too.
Last edited by Derek41; 10-14-2022 at 04:34 PM..
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