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Old 10-01-2022, 10:42 AM
 
7,583 posts, read 4,137,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Wow that is a fantastic contribution to this discussion, very well-reasoned and not at all as pedantic as you feared ;-)


Yes and the contractor, in a sense, was just exercising his public right to freedom of association too. It is just that the bigotry that brought him to disassociate from Jews is the problem. Let us say hypothetically that I as a businessman had certain experiences consistently with Jewish people, let us say they have a tendency to "grind" me on price or some other cultural "tic" and I just don't want to deal with it anymore. That is arguably one thing. But the belief that Jews are uniquely responsible for some sort of devious conspiracy to undermine non-Jews and are therefore bad and untrustworthy in toto -- something for which there's no evidence or truly any personal experience to go by -- because of the gaslighting of Jews by others -- that is ANOTHER thing.

The irony here is that due to the freedom of association, the contractor was doing nothing illegal and in fact exercising a personal "right". It can't be controlled without being a net detriment to society as a whole. Once you start forcing people together who don't want to be together, once association isn't completely voluntary, you have other problems to deal with.

But this does not make the contractor's actions right or good, either. He was happy to do the work when he saw the client as just another human like himself. He was unhappy when, because of new information, the client fell into an "inhuman" or at least de-humanized category despite no actions on their part that would put them in said category. Any thinking that diminishes the humanity of others is, not to put too fine a point on it, evil. Particularly when it's entirely unprovoked and the problem exists only in between someone's ears.

One might argue that the group that happens to be in the majority has a right to its preferences as well. I would say they have a right but it is not limitless. It is no different than a person with a preference for listening to very loud acid rock music, if they take it to a certain level, will run afoul of the law, and probably afoul of community standards well before that.

There are also always competing concerns. Optimize for X, you inherently de-optimize for Y. So if you optimize for the sensibilities and preferences of your in-group, you maybe be actively diminish the quality of life for some part of the out-group. Particularly when your ideology professes to be one of love and patience and forbearance, then it is not unreasonable to ask you to not always have your way in everything. Mostly what the religious are asked to do is to not impose their sensibilities on society and in exchange society provides them with some concessions, too: exemptions from taxes and equal-opportunity requirements, etc.

Some religious just get greedy and are blind to the privileges even that they are specifically granted, and feel they don't have enough privilege if they are in any way bumping into the rights of others.
I am happy that you like my post. All good points you bring up here. I appreciate the response.

The bolded is important. I know it has been said before that the limitations will not be placed by non-Christians even though some are blaming the atheists for doing so. Christians themselves will do it because once privilege crosses over into politics, which is what has to happen if you want a majority, you have to start giving validation to those who are less, well....to those who have differing levels of spirituality.
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:14 AM
 
9,345 posts, read 4,302,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
* Sniff sniff* You smell that?


Smells like self-righteousness. Weird.
Are there any difference in woek days, givernment office hours at all between Friday, Saruraday or Sunday.

I once read on a photography forum complaints about large camera retellers beung closed for business on the Jewish Sabbath. No Jews were harmed by those complaints but Christian privelege in not understanding that other religions may have diffetent days of rest. It was nit that long ago that stores were closed all day Sunday. Whuch religiin has Sunday as their day of rest?

You infer that Christian privelege means an attack on Christians. Stop being paronoid. Its a description of how society is constructed under the assumption that people are some type of Christian.

There is also white privelege. That is not hating whites or saying whites are racists or white supremists. If you are white you enjoy some privelege. You can go jogging in any affluent neighbourhood without being judged as a thieve or mugger. I am white and I see white privelge. Less discriminatiin, prejudice or judging of me than if I was black or indigeous.

Again it is not an attack on your religion or belief. Nor does it imply that Christians discrimate or deliberately harm. So just ease off your defence of Christianity in this instance. We'll gang up on you in another thread if youd like.
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:17 AM
 
18,927 posts, read 6,931,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
Are there any difference in woek days, givernment office hours at all between Friday, Saruraday or Sunday.

I once read on a photography forum complaints about large camera retellers beung closed for business on the Jewish Sabbath. No Jews were harmed by those complaints but Christian privelege in not understanding that other religions may have diffetent days of rest. It was nit that long ago that stores were closed all day Sunday. Whuch religiin has Sunday as their day of rest?

You infer that Christian privelege means an attack on Christians. Stop being paronoid. Its a description of how society is constructed under the assumption that people are some type of Christian.

There is also white privelege. That is not hating whites or saying whites are racists or white supremists. If you are white you enjoy some privelege. You can go jogging in any affluent neighbourhood without being judged as a thieve or mugger. I am white and I see white privelge. Less discriminatiin, prejudice or judging of me than if I was black or indigeous.

Again it is not an attack on your religion or belief. Nor does it imply that Christians discrimate or deliberately harm. So just ease off your defence of Christianity in this instance. We'll gang up on you in another thread if youd like.
I fail to see the issue. Could you elaborate? What's the problem?
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,469 posts, read 24,054,533 times
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
I fail to see the issue. Could you elaborate? What's the problem?
Naturally. THAT'S christian privilege.
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
I fail to see the issue. Could you elaborate? What's the problem?
Replying within three minutes of my post. If you are not even willing to give mynpist a few minutes ro think about what I said I will not make another effort to explain it.I

The problem us that you think it is your right because you are Christian.
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:29 AM
 
18,927 posts, read 6,931,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
Replying within three minutes of my post. If you are not even willing to give mynpist a few minutes ro think about what I said I will not make another effort to explain it.I

The problem us that you think it is your right because you are Christian.
Why assume your post needed more than 3 minutes to assess it?
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Old 10-01-2022, 12:48 PM
 
9,345 posts, read 4,302,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Why assume your post needed more than 3 minutes to assess it?
Easty because you originally denied the existence of Christian privelege. My post presented a couple of examples. That you answwred almost immediately that you did nor believe in it demostrates rhat you barely took any time too ponder if Christian or white privelege even exist. That people do not understand why folks of other religions would take their own Sabbath off was perfectly understandable to you shows you think Christian privelege is just the way things should be.

Just how many industrial or conmercial places of business in your town that are closed at least one day a week are closed eirher Friday or Saturaday Instead of on Sunday? Why if they close obly one day a week it is Sunday?

Why are people either surprised or upset if a Jewish on line busibess is closed on Saturaday but not if Hobby Lobby is closed on Sunday?

Why are government offices closed in Sunday but not Friday?

Why do most of those who attend your church have Sundays off? Wh were Christmas plays so commin in public schools?

Most if those examples may not be harmful or hurtful to those of other religions but may be inconvience that Christians do not have to face. Yes retail stores ans factories may run seven days a week however that would also affect Muslins and Jews.us

Again do not look at Christian privelege as an attack on Christians and more than recignizi ng that us straight white males face less hurtles than b lack or gay man or in mant cases women.
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Old 10-01-2022, 01:20 PM
 
18,927 posts, read 6,931,543 times
Reputation: 3557
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
Easty because you originally denied the existence of Christian privelege. My post presented a couple of examples. That you answwred almost immediately that you did nor believe in it demostrates rhat you barely took any time too ponder if Christian or white privelege even exist. That people do not understand why folks of other religions would take their own Sabbath off was perfectly understandable to you shows you think Christian privelege is just the way things should be.

Just how many industrial or conmercial places of business in your town that are closed at least one day a week are closed eirher Friday or Saturaday Instead of on Sunday? Why if they close obly one day a week it is Sunday?

Why are people either surprised or upset if a Jewish on line busibess is closed on Saturaday but not if Hobby Lobby is closed on Sunday?

Why are government offices closed in Sunday but not Friday?

Why do most of those who attend your church have Sundays off? Wh were Christmas plays so commin in public schools?

Most if those examples may not be harmful or hurtful to those of other religions but may be inconvience that Christians do not have to face. Yes retail stores ans factories may run seven days a week however that would also affect Muslins and Jews.us

Again do not look at Christian privelege as an attack on Christians and more than recignizi ng that us straight white males face less hurtles than b lack or gay man or in mant cases women.
Nowhere did I admit to "Christian privilege", as if such a thing exists.

If a business wants to do business on a particular day of the week or not, they can certainly choose to. If a town wants to allow or disallow for it, they can do so. It's not "Christian privilege" for society to decide to function based on what the majority of people want.

I still find it amazing that Christians have such an amazing rent-free place in your head.
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Old 10-01-2022, 01:40 PM
 
7,583 posts, read 4,137,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
For the most part, I don't think 'christian privilege' is about legality. I say "for the most part" because there are times it can spill over into legal issues...but then I think it becomes something that is not just 'privilege', but becomes legal versus illegal entitlement.

American public schools are, perhaps, one of the best laboratories to examine various '_________ privilege'. And I put the _____________ in instead of 'christian' because schools have demonstrated -- in the past, at least -- various groups that had 'privilege' over other groups.

When I was in elementary school...about in the third grade, which would have made it around 1955...the school decided that children of certain religions could be dismissed 90 minutes early on Wednesday afternoons to attend an hour-long 'church school', but only if the kids were Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopal Church. If children were Catholic...tough luck...stay and do an extra 90 minutes of math. Same with Jewish children (after all, there were only two...ahem), children who went to the Church Of God, and any other church, other than the four mentioned. All sorts of excuses were given -- other churches were too far (the catholic church was an additional 2 minute walk beyond the Presbyterian church), other churches required crossing major streets (a lie, since only the Episcopal church was on the same block as the school, and the other 3 acceptable churches required walks that crossed the only two major routes in the village (state routes 21 and 31, and btw, no crossing guard).

And then there's the holiday situation discussed earlier. So many christian parents complained that our school system (where I was an administrator) restricted the scheduling of tests and MAJOR activities during Jewish holidays because, according to them, chritians didn't have any such privileges...despite the fact that christmas vacation, apparently by sheer coincidence, just happened to occur during Winter Break and Spring Break just happened to occur during Spring Break (including Good Friday); my goodness...what a coincidence! I once had a group of Jewish parents come to the school to thank me for being the first principal they had dealt with that actually honored the school system's rule regarding Jewish holidays. I also made special arrangements for our Muslim students during Ramadan.

We have seen, in this nation, what certain types of 'privilege' have led to. Slavery. The Civil War. Jim Crow. Anti-Semitism. The murder of Mormons in several locations. Laws to prohibit atheists from running for public office. And on and on.
Legality is used in a specific context so it is meant to have a formal sense to it. "We can't do that." "Why?" "It's the law." As long as most citizens buy into the law and the judicial process, they will remain civilly obedient and not challenge it.

Even though privilege has a denotation of "private law", it is not constrained to one context or one connotation. It can have a wide range of understandings as was pointed out earlier that it is an attitude. For example, children of this country should feel privileged to be able to attend public school (no matter how awful it might be, some would say.) Here it has a positive connotation. However, it can also have a negative connotation, such as Christian privilege.

My guess is that privilege can be used in different contexts and with different connotations because laws, after all, are human-made, imperfect, and are subject to change to fit the current political environment. This is no different than institutions changing their policies; you provided examples of accommodating Jewish and Muslim beliefs in your school. And it is no different than making and changing the informal rules we make in our homes. For example, older children have more privileges than younger children.
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Old 10-01-2022, 02:18 PM
 
9,345 posts, read 4,302,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Nowhere did I admit to "Christian privilege", as if such a thing exists.

If a business wants to do business on a particular day of the week or not, they can certainly choose to. If a town wants to allow or disallow for it, they can do so. It's not "Christian privilege" for society to decide to function based on what the majority of people want.

I still find it amazing that Christians have such an amazing rent-free place in your head.
Did you go to public school? If so did you ever have to write an exam on Christmas Day or Easter Sunday? If you went to private school no wonder you did not see it.

The very fact that Christians are in the majority is the reason for most of their priveledge. Students from other faiths going to public schools do need to attend school on their relugiius holidays. You do not see that as a Christian but a majority advantage. Religious wise who are the majority?

As far as Christians living in my head, fortuantely no they dont. I do have the ability to observe the world. I can see that institutiios are setup ro accomidate your religion. I see white privelege as well. White people do not live in my head but I am white. It just means that I can observe there ars less obstacles for me than a black ir idigeous man.
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